Tao Pai Pai (1st appearence) vs Yamcha (22nd Budokai)

[SSJ2]

Why is the basic scaling being ignored? Initial 22nd Goku was already expected to be stronger than his post Karin self, was barely expected to beat Chappa, and ended up stomping him. His initial display already blew Tao Pai Pai out of the water. Any reluctance for Tsuru or Tenshinhan had to come from some level of bias to reconcile this.

 

[ahill1]

@SSJ2

When Goku defeated Panpoot, all Tsuru said was "maybe he really defeated Tao"


Chapter: 122, P12.3-6
Context: after Goku defeats Panput
Tenshinhan: “That wasn’t one blow. While brushing off his opponent’s fast punch with his right hand, with his left he showered him with…3 rapid-fire elbow blows…That brat, he’s no ordinary person.”
Tsuru-sennin: “I see…maybe he really did defeat Tao Pai Pai…”
Tenshinhan: “This tournament is finally getting interestig…”

That is, the idea Goku did it isn't so off. Not that the confirmation came to him already.

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished
…”

Before it, may be that Tsuru vs Panpoot sees Goku's defeating Tao as simply not something to be ignored out of luck. He knew he had something special on him and it triggered Tenshinhan, as he said the tournament is finally getting interesting, meaning Goku's displaying vs Panpoot awakened in him more excitement than Yamcha.

later on, Tsuru gave the confirmatin that he "might be good enough" to defeat Tao, showing that the earlier potential in being a big deal vs Panpoot, was confirmed as the case post his performance vs Kuririn.

VIZ makes that line make more sense... It has Tsuru saying "NOW I see he could have defeated Tao". As if Panpoot took it from an impossibility of it happening or being sheer lucky to it being maybe reality... And the Kuririn battle confirmed it.

So it just doesn't read as Yamcha and Kuririn having power to best Tao. Goku who defeated Kuririn is the one with power to defeat Tao... The latter which seems more aligned with Kame Sennin in power by the way Toriyama worded Kame's statement in conjunction with Tsuru. It's slopoy writing, but the way Toriyama gave all this emphasis to Tao after, doesn't give the vibe he's below Yamcha and Kuririn, much less Chaozu and Chappa.

The best way to make that work from where I stand, is assuming Goku was using a match level vs Son Gohan, much like he said vs Tenshinhan later on that now he sees Ten has killing intention, he can go all out. Maybe Goku would showcase more of his power when he got his tail taken off and said "now I'm really mad", while beforehand he took that more as an entertaining match than a kill or to die vs Gohan... And the level he used to defeat Kuririn being the one he used to beat Tao.

Kame-Sennin likely never saw Tao, I dunno, but his disbelief at Goku doing it also adds to the narrative. Even being Goku, whom he expected as the top dog of his disciples, defeating Tao, seemed hard ro grasp for him.

it's somewhat of a sloppy writing, but there's no cues of Tsuru being in denial, otherwise he wouldn't accept Tao being surpassed when Goku showed his full match level. On the opposite, he seemed to have a specific level for Tao which required him to see in detail to lay the hammer that such in fact happening. And the prime Tao stuff always seemed like a stretch to me. At least we know Tsuru used to keep in touch with Tao as he said he hadn't heard from him for 3 years, so they used to meet at least.

 

[SIAD]

They forget that Tao Pai Pai has a sword. Goku managed to counter her with his Holy Staff.

I know it's not a great argument, but it's something.

Also, Tsuru must have realized that Goku had defeated Tao Pai Pai when he was even smaller than he was then.

 

[DBZAOTA482]

Yamcha, but with great difficulty.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’m not sure if the other implications are basic writing can be called “basic scaling” since it’s basically Crane school’s word vs Kame school’s.

Roshi doesn’t really doubt Goku. He instantly takes Goku’s word and is worried sick because Tsuru and co. will seek revenge. He never doubts him.

 

[Pakl]

Yamcha and Krillin would have to be stronger than Goku from 3 years ago. However, the later conversation seems to suggest Taopaipai was still a big deal, and it sounds like Chiaotzu wouldn't be stronger than him. The way it's discussed, it's implied Taopaipai is not far behind Tsuru-sennin or Roshi.

 

[ahill1]

@GreatSaiyaman123

He doesn't flat out doubt Goku but acts in disbelief at first, which is why Goku says "even you, gramps?"...

I'd say he fits in between Tsuru and Roshi

Tsuru -- 45
Tao -- 50
Roshi -- 52

Pretty much all on the same ball park tho. I take Daizenshuu's gap for Roshi over Tsuru since we have no dimension of it in the manga... So a 1.16x one, applying it to the BPs I have.

 

[ahill1]

Main problem with all that is that Goku's improvement looks punny looking at the numbers from post Karin to 22nd Budokai... Going from 55 to 66. Still tho, a considerable increase in which he could whoop his former self... But Roshi outlined other attributes from Goku growing, like his control of impulsiveness in not attacking Ten post the Yamcha match, his overcoming of the tail weak point, Roshi also emphasized Goku could gain experience travelling around the world and knwowing different things, which coukd have added into his smart decision thinking vs Ten throughout the battle, a fake Zanzoken, firing the KMHMH the opposite direction... So despite the not so massive power growth, he developed way more as a warrior in general.

It also helps with the Karin thing. We saw Goku was pressing Karin to get the water but was still somewhat below him, but close. Later post 22nd Karin states Goku has surpassed him already, but leaves no thinking for a big margin, Goku resorting to Karin may imply there's a proximity. So it also helps, like:

Goku (post Karin) : 55
Karin : 60
Goku (22nd) : 66

 

[Goku9001]

Tsuru was simply in denial. He already acknowledged that Goku could have beaten Tao after he beat Panputto. Seeing Goku's match level only confirmed what he had already thought beforehand. You're reading so much into that second statement from Tsuru when it has no implication on how easily Goku defeated Tao, only that he was defeated. The level against Panputto was already established to be good enough.

You could see based on Tsuru and Tenshinhan's reaction to Goku claiming to have beaten Tao that they were being clouded heavily by their emotions. Tenshinhan became enraged immediately. They revered Tao as the best and weren't using common sense.

None of the fight against Son Gohan indicated that Goku was holding back such a massive amount of power. There's no way to explain that.

I don't think that's it. I believe the implication was that Goku was holding back far more power but they had no idea by how much. That led Tsuru to be uncertain as to whether or not Goku could do it. He had to see for himself whether Goku had the power to do it. Even Tenshinhan noted something extraordinary behind Goku's attacks which led him to believe that Goku was stronger than he let on.

It's more of a matter of needing to see it for themselves to confirm how much power Goku was concealing from them.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@ahill1

Roshi is mostly surprised for dramatic reasons, not power reasons. He’s not gonna be “Oh you killed the brother of my worst enemy? K cool”. Goku’s reaction is because he didn’t think Tao was anybody important other than “some assassin”.

Still, I think Tao being up there with Tsuru and Roshi makes sense. They’re all the old guard, the masters that are only now being surpassed.

Goku: 22.5
~ Post training: 60

Tao Pai Pai: 55

Mummy: 22.5
Akkuman: 30
Gohan: 42

Goku (Vs Gohan): 45

3 years later…

King Chappa: 45

Chaozu: 45
Kuririn/Yamcha: 50

Master Tsuru: 55
Master Roshi: 60

Goku: 65
~ Full power: 75

Tenshinhan: 72

For the PD Saga, I just couldn’t make sense of that <50% line. Maybe if Piccolo was comparing to his prime FP, like “I don’t even need my peak to destroy you, this body isn’t half as strong and it’s more than enough”.



Piccolo: 90
~ Young: 200

Goku (Post water): 200

Yajirobe: 65
Tambourine: 60
Cymbal: 40

Mr Popo: 228
Kami-Sama: 275

Then it’s kinda smooth for the 23rd, though I’m still ignoring the “many times stronger” statements for the sake of it.

Tao Pai Pai: 150
Yamcha: 175
Kuririn: 180

Tenshinhan: 225

Goku (Weighted): 225
~ Unweighted: 275
~ Full power: 375
~ Super KHH: 910

Piccolo Jr: 200
~ Powered up: 270
~ Full power: 360
~ Masenko: 890

But alternatively, if Goku and Piccolo can go beyond 400ish (which I doubt because how would he miss a power up in his face? Why would he not state it, when he’s clearly bewildered by any form of PL change?)

Goku: 225
~ Unweighted: 300
~ Full power: 450
~ BoZ: 520

Kami-Sama: 300

Piccolo Jr: 200
~ Powered up: 300
~ Full power: 440
~ BoZ: 510

 

[ahill1]

Yesh but the dramatic reason also adds up to their unexpectedness in Goku having accomplished that.

If I gave up the scouters, I'd like to up Goku's battle level more in comparison to match level. Tenshinhan wondered "so you have a whole new level reserved, is that what you're saying"... And the fact it was something released from a Goku with already no worries about killing, while the match level was more to have fun in the tournament with no killing intent, it may imply a big boost... Which also gives more credit to Goku's 3 years gains, since in that theory his full match level was the one used to defeat Tao Pai Pai.

I'd also give Goku (post Karin) way more power than I do in my following scouters lists, since Goku one shotted Mummy (expected as > 21st Goku) and then one shotted Akkuman, who seemed confident in defeating Goku post seeing the boy's feat over Mummy.


Goku (21st Budokai) 20
-- vs Blue 22

Mummy 22

Akkuman 35

Goku (defeating Akkuman, vs Son Gohan) 53
Son Gohan 51

Chappa 55
Goku (vs Chappa) 66

Chaozu 63
Yamcha 64
Kuririn 66
Goku (more serious vs Kuririn) 75

Tsuru 75
Roshi 87

Goku (full match level, level used vs Tao) 94
Tao Pai Pai 85

Tenshinhan (FP) 120
Goku (battle level) 125


Cymbal 70

Tambourine 100

Goku 125
Yajirobe 110

Old Piccolo (less than half) 170
--- 100% 375

Young Piccolo Daimao 565

Drum 150
Tenshinhan 120

Goku (post water) 580


---- 23rd


Chi Chi 130

Cyborg Tao 375

Yamcha 420

Kuririn 450

Tenshinhan 725

Goku (weighted)
-- strength 735
-- speed 580

Unweighted 1,000

Mr. Popo 875

Kami-Sama/Shen 1,250

Piccolo Junior
-- more serious vs Kuririn 565
-- vs Shen 1,320
-- FP 2,000

Goku (FP) 2,040



Those would be the perfect spacings in my mind.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Son-Goku vs Son-Gohan is not match-level of his then-level then?

 

[ahill1]

Son-Goku vs Son-Gohan is not match-level of his then-level then?

Match level of his then level, yeah.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@ahill1 you just read my mind man. Let’s go back to the good old days of no scouter DB with our new knowledge of Tao > most of 22nd. trying to fit scouters is a funny experiment but it’s a dead end.

I’m wondering if Kuririn and co. could be lowered though. All Kuririn and Yamcha have is them teasing each other with cocky talk, and Chappa seems to be plain overrated. But on the other hand, Kuririn and Yamcha were supposed to be relevant back in the day…

 

[SSJ2]

Here's the thing, it's not Chappa that was overrated, it's Goku who well exceeded expectations.

 

[Animelover5487]

Here's the thing, it's not Chappa that was overrated, it's Goku who well exceeded expectations.

It can work if Goku was still using his match level against Gohan.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Here's the thing, it's not Chappa that was overrated, it's Goku who well exceeded expectations.

It’s a bit of both. Same situation as Goku vs Pamputto, but Chappa >>> Pamputto.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Actually the Pamputto situation is the complete opposite. Kuririn just thinks Pamputto is overrated and Roshi explains it to him. With Chappa even Roshi shat himself.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I get that Goku not going all out vs Gohan was never mentioned and hint at the moment. I bet Toriyama thought of that as Goku's FP too. But with him later inserting things making Tao relevant, with Tenshinhan believing it should be out of luck that Tao was defeated after tasting Yamcha's powers and having already seen part of Kuririn vs Chaozu, which had already portrayed Kuririn's h2h expertise, it just makes it seem like Toriyama doesn't envision the Kame's students showplay at the 22nd as enough to defeat Tao. I also don't think it's a strong denial from Tsuru because he acknowledged Goku as strong enough to defeat Tao once he defeated Kuririn... When Goku defeated Panpoot in an amzing fashion, I see it more like it ringing the bell on him that perhaps Tao's defeat holds truth... But Goku's later display vs Kuririn was what really solidified it for him, also coming together with Roshi saying he may have been surpassed. So the impression is that then, vs Kuririn, Goku proved himself as strong enough to defeat Tao. So retroactively, as a way to explain their confidence vs earlier Goku, having Goku holding back using a match level mentality vs Son Gohan, while vs Tao it was a killing intent, rationalizes all the implications of Kuririn and Yamcha >> Baba tournament Goku but << Tao... It's a way to reconcile Toriyama making Tao relevant there. I find it hard to disregard all those statements as denailism... And a possible prime Tao, while a cool theory, would be also another theory and to me unlikely, as it seems Tsuru would hear from Tao eventually as he said he didn't hear from him for 3 years. AT also never hinted at a prime Tao, so I'd say both theories --- prime Tao vs Goku holding back vs Gohan -- would have holes as it not being laid out as the case from Toriyama. Though I think that intent wise, the "match level" vs Gohan flows better to me given all the attention that defeating Tao was given later on, with only the two finalists being way above that level of power. In VIZ at least, Tsuru says "now I see how he could have defeated Tao"... While Herms still makes it more like a possibility putting "he may have been strong enough" iirc. Roshi in VIZ stated he "may have been surpassed", while in Herms he says "he has a feeling his position was tarnished" iirc. If I included Tenshinhan's suppressed level, then the level used more seriously Vs Yamcha, then the further increase vs Roshi... Then the fact he was even with that Roshi and the statement we got that Roshi surpassed Tsuru amidst the battle and later on Ten saying Roshi didn't use his FP... I'd get the same range, more or less.

Maybe Chappa was as strong as Goku (vs Gohan) which is why Roshi was expecting that to show how much Goku got stronger.


Son Gohan 53
Goku (vs gohan) 55
Chappa 55

Chaozu 63
Yamcha 64
Kuririn 66
Goku (vs Chappa) 66
-- more serious vs Kuririn 75
-- full match level, battle level vs tao 94

Tenshinhan (initially) 65
-- more serious vs Yamcha 73

Tenshinhan (vs Kame sennin) 73
-- more serious 80

Kame Sennin (initially) 73
-- more serious 80 (Ten admits he's > Tsuru)
FP (not seen) 90

Tsuru 77

Tao Pai Pai 85

Goku (battle level) 125

Ten (FP) 120

It's weird having Goku and Ten so much above Roshi for some, but Roshi had already admitted being outclassed by Goku without knowing Goku had a new battle level on reserve. That gives margin for the likes of Tambourine being > Roshi too, as all Tambourine needs to be is << Goku, and in the anime portrayal of the fight at least, Tambourine defeated Kuririn with a single kick to the head. My numbers show that as a oneshot range (100 vs 66)

Tambourine 100
Yajirobe 110
Tenshinhan 120
Goku 125
Drum 150
Less than half old Piccolo 175

Old Piccolo 375
Young Piccolo 562.5
Goku (Choushinsü) 575

Mr. Popo 870

Kami-sama 1,300

I also like those gaps because the difference between Young Piccolo and old Piccolo (66/100) is exactly the same difference between Tambourine and Drum (66/100)... Which also makes sense, as in, he could spawn a warrior stronger than the warrior from last time accordingly to the increase he had in power.

One thing about the 23rd gaps is that initially unweighted Goku heavily outclassed Ten... Yet Ten knew Goku was far from FP vs him. And still, watching Shen vs Piccolo blew his mind and he was nervous at the odds of a Goku vs Piccolo, without knowing Piccolo was holding back still. So I'd say Shen vs Piccolo Junior was already at a level way above the level unweighted Goku used to defeat Ten... If they were at that level, Ten would know that his expectations for a FP Goku heavily outclassed that. So it seems Shen vs Piccolo was fought at a level above anything shown at the tournament yet... And it matched the level Goku and Piccolo started fighting in their warm up, a level that was beyond anything unweighted Goku showed vs Ten and fell in the limbo where Ten put a "hypothetical FP Goku" at. Honestly, if Goku unweighted vs Ten were 1,000 I could even place Shen vs Piccolo at 1,500. A 1.5x difference may warrant Ten's nervousness at a Piccolo vs Goku when he couldn't even imagine how much power Goku had in reserve compared to the one he used to battle and knock him down.

Unweighted Goku 1,000

Shen 1,400
Piccolo junior (vs shen) 1,500

Goku and Piccolo FP 2,250

 

[Fantastische Hure]

he said his position vanished not tarnished iirc lol