The Captain's assortment of even more random numbers...the Part 1 one

[p123]

Of course there are flaws, but as you said, there's a reason why we don't just 1.1, 1.2, 1.3 for every superior character. Our best bet in this no scouter, but scouter influenced realm, is to compare fights.

(Vegeta > Cui) > (Drum > Tien) > (Monster Zarbon > Vegeta)

Would you agree with that?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I can agree to that in principle, but in execution it's a different matter since as already mentioned, there are inconsistencies with gaps and the like with the original system such as Vegeta taking far more punishment from attacks stronger than Monster Zarbon in the Saiyan Arc, yet being done in by Zarbon after a dozen hits at most after having become stronger. That said, a scouter influenced system would still have the problem of being forced to cherry pick when it comes to such fights, thereby making trying to find some internal logic to it pointless overall.

 

[p123]

Of course, there will be inconsistencies. Monster Zarbon vs Vegeta doesn't appear to be all that huge of a gap, yet Vegeta gets taken out quicker than against stronger foes. I don't see why that means we should just throw out everything. The gap isn't huge, but Vegeta gets put down just the same. How does that alter what I'm talking about though?


If we agree to this in principle...
(Vegeta > Cui) > (Drum > Tien) > (Monster Zarbon > Vegeta)

Why shouldn't it be reflected in our numbers? Gaps don't automatically determine everything in a fight.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The inconsistencies still stop the principle from becoming concrete, as what's to stop someone basing their chain on something such as Kaioken x3 Goku VS Vegeta or Oozaru Vegeta VS Goku? Whilst the examples you presented may seem more consistent, I feel that if there's some internal logic to be grasped from scouter numbers and feat gaps/chains, there was a distinctly different internal logic at work in both arcs they were used.

Following on from that, there's the elephant in the room being the Z-Warriors' numbers at the start of the series. Whilst you could write them off as outliers or Toriyama not polishing his new idea yet, that in itself, along with the feats in the Saiyan Arc contradicting gaps in the Namek Arc, shows a pretty clear fact; these numbers weren't intended to be used in previous material, even in retrospect. Furthermore, trying to base the new system on the scouters for Part 1 has another flaw you even mentioned in regard to gaps not automatically determining a fight. Along with skill playing a higher factor in fights than it did in DBZ, there's the fact that the scouter readings were based on a person's Ki output. How is this supposed to correlate to Part 1, when about 80% of the characters have no skill in or knowledge of Ki?
That said, applying even a selective scouter logic for Part 1 doesn't add up when this part has far more variables to take into account. Overall, making your own personal system with it's own rules in regard to gaps not influenced by the original makes far more sense.

I do, however, agree with your chain. I would say that ranking fight gaps and tiering based on it makes sense by itself. Expressed numerically, especially with scouter influence, is something else entirely though.

 

[p123]

Well that's fine. We can stick to whatever you are most comfortable with. Tiers and comparing fights and understanding the context is the way it should be done.

On to the next subject.

Doesn't it make more sense to have Great Ape as a 5x transformation? Weren't you mentioning this regarding Vegeta's Great Ape being 10x not being necessary? I think it fits better with the overall story, the 21st Budokai and the Saiyan Arc as well. Why go with 10x, which is too much from a numerical standpoint in my experiences.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

If anything, it should be far larger, given Oozaru Goku shouldn't be a complete ant to Roshi's Max Power Kamehameha, which based on it's Small City level feat of destroying Mount Fry Pan should be >>> 22nd TB Tenshithands' Kikoho (only Multi-City Block level at best). You could argue that perhaps Roshi's fatigue affected his Max Power state and with the Moon Bust being commonly agreed to be an outlier, it shouldn't matter there. However, I don't see a real reason why it should be changed at all in terms of fitting better since nerfing the multiplier would make things worse, if anything. Firstly, there's Oozaru Gohan being stronger than Piccolo during his first transformation. Then, there's Oozaru Vegeta not only being stated to be significantly above Kaioken x5 Goku, but being weakened enough for Gohan to put up a fight against his base self later on. I'd say the 10x multiplier works perfectly in the latter and if anything seems far too small with the former.

 

[p123]

So you have Roshi's KHH attack stronger than Tien's Kikoho?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That's what the feats show, at least for it's usage in the Hunt for the Dragon Balls Arc.

 

[p123]

Destroying the moon is a pretty big deal. Destroying the moon is probably a bigger feat than destroying the Americas, both continents. So imagine how long that would take in the series and then that is just surface level, imagine a planet the size of the Americas and that's the moon and on the shorter side as well...

What's up with General Blue being 89% of Goku when they fight?

 

[Future Warrior]

Introducing battle powers is one of the worst if not the worst writing mistakes had ever put forth. They don't give us much freedom in properly scaling these characters when we are forced to abide by some number that AT probably hadn't even given more than 10 seconds of thought put into it and creating some kind of non-existent formula out of it to correlate with shown feats will only leave you wasting hours of your life trying to make it work.

Example (one of many): Vegeta still having a ton of reserves left after taking a massive beating from KKx3 Goku, yet Post-Zenkai Vegeta who becomes just as powerful (both presumably at 24k) obliterates Cui with a flick of his finger. Or how about a severely weakened Vegeta being able to still stand after being hit by the Genki-Dama head on with the force of half the one that was implied to defeat his Oozaru form?

And no, I don't wanna hear any of that (But Vegeta has strong durability!!!) bullshit, because that didn't help him in his fight against Zarbon and Recoome.

This is why I haven't cared about battle powers much less created a list in well over a year...

 

[p123]

Battle powers is a large reason the fanbase has stuck around for so many years. DBZ is popular partly because of it's battle powers.

 

[Future Warrior]

On forums maybe. It's moreso the new content we've been getting since 2013 I'd say which basically spawned a new age for the franchise itself (Not to say that it was even close to being good though).

And even if it wasn't, I still highly doubt battle power lists has had that much of an impact since one's that extent beyond forums aren't anywhere near as explored upon as some members do here.

 

[ahill1]

Whilst I do agree that Akira Toriyama didn't put too much effort when coming up with the BoZ numbers, Dragon Ball is a series whose fights are generally (and by that I mean more than 90% of the times) decided by battle powers. The only examples that go against it (as far as I remember) are Jackie Chun vs Goku in the 21st Budokai, Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd and Goku vs Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai, the latter which had a weaker opponent winning by dumb luck and the former which the two were already pretty close together, giving opportunity for the skill factor to kick in. Besides this, when the difference is too big, skill should hardly matter unless it's a special one like the telekinesis (Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd) or an amplified one.

Even when Goku stated that power wasn't everything on his fight against Raditz, he was still sweatting (which many times indicates the character isn't totally convinced about what he is talking about), and he was alredy jaw-dropped as soon as Raditz showcased his superior speed, forcing them to cling on Piccolo's special technique which already on itself clinged on battle power (as Piccolo's Makankosappo wouldn't be effective if it were way below Raditz... and in fact it still wasn't enough to kill Raditz until this latter was a lot weakened by Gohan's headbutt).

Akira Toriyama even stated that one of the reasons to which he dropped the scouter system was because it was somewhat killing the surprise factor in a battle, since the winner could be easily predicted by the numbers alone, which conforms to the idea that power is ultimately what matters in Dragon Ball. So I'd say that, albeit with too tight numbers, a number concept really matches a series like Dragon Ball, and its (the series') taken as power ultimately being the deciding factor.

 

[Animelover5487]

Introducing battle powers is one of the worst if not the worst writing mistakes had ever put forth. They don't give us much freedom in properly scaling these characters when we are forced to abide by some number that AT probably hadn't even given more than 10 seconds of thought put into it and creating some kind of non-existent formula out of it to correlate with shown feats will only leave you wasting hours of your life trying to make it work.

Example (one of many): Vegeta still having a ton of reserves left after taking a massive beating from KKx3 Goku, yet Post-Zenkai Vegeta who becomes just as powerful (both presumably at 24k) obliterates Cui with a flick of his finger. Or how about a severely weakened Vegeta being able to still stand after being hit by the Genki-Dama head on with the force of half the one that was implied to defeat his Oozaru form?

And no, I don't wanna hear any of that (But Vegeta has strong durability!!!) bullshit, because that didn't help him in his fight against Zarbon and Recoome.

This is why I haven't cared about battle powers much less created a list in well over a year...

You could use the Yuuki argument. Cui's fear made his power drop.

When was it said that the Genkidama that hit Vegeta was at half power?

 

[Future Warrior]

Whilst I do agree that Akira Toriyama didn't put too much effort when coming up with the BoZ numbers, Dragon Ball is a series whose fights are generally (and by that I mean more than 90% of the times) decided by battle powers. The only examples that go against it (as far as I remember) are Jackie Chun vs Goku in the 21st Budokai, Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd and Goku vs Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai, the latter which had a weaker opponent winning by dumb luck and the former which the two were already pretty close together, giving opportunity for the skill factor to kick in. Besides this, when the difference is too big, skill should hardly matter unless it's a special one like the telekinesis (Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd) or an amplified one.

Completely missed the point of my post. I never said battle powers doesn't have any contribution to winning a battle, my point is that trying to create some internal logic (Which AT never used) out of an already flawed system such as ''gaps'' will ultimately lead you nowhere when it's already proven to be inconsistent. The battle powers shown in BOZ doesn't change the fact that the power scale of Part 1 happened nor is there any evidence to suggest that it's irrelevant to it's successor.

You could use the Yuuki argument. Cui's fear made his power drop.

When was it said that the Genkidama that hit Vegeta was at half power?

Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”

 

[ahill1]

Whilst I do agree that Akira Toriyama didn't put too much effort when coming up with the BoZ numbers, Dragon Ball is a series whose fights are generally (and by that I mean more than 90% of the times) decided by battle powers. The only examples that go against it (as far as I remember) are Jackie Chun vs Goku in the 21st Budokai, Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd and Goku vs Tenshinhan in the 22nd Budokai, the latter which had a weaker opponent winning by dumb luck and the former which the two were already pretty close together, giving opportunity for the skill factor to kick in. Besides this, when the difference is too big, skill should hardly matter unless it's a special one like the telekinesis (Kuririn and Gohan vs Gurd) or an amplified one.

Completely missed the point of my post. I never said battle powers doesn't have any contribution to winning a battle, my point is that trying to create some internal logic (Which AT used) out of an already flawed system such as ''gaps'' will ultimately lead you nowhere when it's already proven to be inconsistent. The battle powers shown in BOZ doesn't change the fact that the power scale of Part 1 happened nor is there any evidence to suggest that it's irrelevant to it's successor.

You could use the Yuuki argument. Cui's fear made his power drop.

When was it said that the Genkidama that hit Vegeta was at half power?

Chapter: 237 (DBZ 43), P1.3/P3.6
Context: giving Kuririn the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Genki-Dama. Yes, ki that I gathered bit by bit from all over the Earth. About half of it got away, but I think there’s enough to beat him as he is now. [ ] Do it, Kuririn! Gohan couldn’t control such power.”

Except I hadn't intended to go up against your post or contradict it, hence why I didn't even quote you. I merely posted why I think a battle power system fits in a series like Dragon Ball, which fits in with this thread. I admitted that the numbers were poorly introducced and that consequently people don't take many DB's implications as serious as they should, but that still the numbers conforms to the taken of the series.

So no, I didn't miss anything when I didn't intend to 'refute' you and merely wished to give my opinion on the whole scouter thing

 

[Future Warrior]

My apologies.

 

[ahill1]

No problem.

 

[SIAD]

If you could put the level of fight of Goku and Piccolo (Beginning of DBZ), what level would you put in this list?

 

[Void]

What the hell are these?