The Fundamental Problems with Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego as the Signature Forms of Goku and Vegeta.

[最強のフュージョン]

We know Bardock was born like most other Saiyans though since he was stated to have softened up, not been born gentle like Broly or Tarble. Also Vegeta has no knowledge of Bardock and we know soft Saiyans existed before as per the 6 righteous Saiyans being needed for the God ritual so yeah...

No disagreement with you there, I just disagree it's a plot hole or something similar since having no recharge time is something a creator can obviously decide on his own. Monaito likely didn't intend for the DBs to be abused that way, and I conceded it would've been FAR better for the DBs to just be wished to bring the Super DBs to the location of the wisher rather than far smaller DBs being OP. So I do think the Cerealian DBs were ass and overly convenient, just not PLOT-breaking since there is no contradiction.

Goku was born violent too. It's ultimately irrelevant. Plus, the only other Saiyans with softer hearts being Goku's parents just undermines Goku's own significance even more.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku was born violent too. It's ultimately irrelevant. Plus, the only other Saiyans with softer hearts being Goku's parents just undermines Goku's own significance even more.

Tarble wasn't born violent and neither was Broly (other than when rampaging which is mostly due to Ikari), plus we know Bardock didn't use to be good. I honestly think people blow that whole "new Bardock is way too soft" thing out of proportion because of nostalgiafagging toward the OG Bardock. Which I do agree with in the sense that old Bardock was a more fleshed out and developed character, with his fate leaving a much sourer aftertaste (in a good way) compared to his DBS self. But hey, it's not like Goku's goodness was "developed" either since he became pure due to a head injury.

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This line just doesn't hit the same.

Most Saiyans are still savage brutes in DBS' flashbacks, my friend. SSJG wouldn't have been special (it no longer is though) if good Saiyans were common. What really pisses me off about the DBS retcons is Beerus' whole existence, being responsible for sealing Old Kaioshin (laughable) and ordering Freeza to wipe out the Saiyans (which is what really kills the thematic relevance of Freeza's character and his atrocities).

For anyone who thinks I defend these aspects of DBS, I hate it just as much as the next guy, I just think some criticisms are exaggerated because it's become a bandwagon to hate on it for the sake of hating on it. I still hate the last 5 or so episodes of the FT arc, I hate basically the whole Moro arc, and I think Granolah sucked more dicks than a Vietnamese whore with a 500k debt. But when I see stuff like "UI broke Goku's character" and "Vegeta shouldn't go back to his savage Saiyan roots even though he decided to take a different route to gain power than UI" I just think people are being too analytical and critical. Reminds me of the time Brofist on the old DBZF was shitting on Super just for some minor plot convenience while conveniently dodging points about how GT was also written by crackhead writers that couldn't even remember the most basic things like the Earth DBs being unable to revive people multiple times or androids not having Ki.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

I have a problem with Tarble and Broli too, so...

 

[Papasmurf]

I have a problem with Tarble and Broli too, so...

Meh I don't have any bigger of a problem with them than the existence of Lord Slug (an exception to Namekians being generally good). I actually think Slug is worse because he's just a ctrl+v of Daimao.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

View attachment 3878
This line just doesn't hit the same.

Why? Goku only developed a respect for his dad, not Saiyans.

I have a problem with Tarble and Broli too, so...

What’s wrong with Tarble?

With Broly, I like the idea that the most dangerous guy ever, a legendary being of chaos and destruction, doesn’t actually like fighting, but that does limit his potential as a character. He’s just going to hang around doing nothing from now on.

 

[Future Warrior]

Why? Goku only developed a respect for his dad, not Saiyans.

So Gine deserved to die then?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So Gine deserved to die then?

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Is Goku supposed to think Saiyans are good because he remembers seeing his mom as a baby?

 

[Future Warrior]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Is Goku supposed to think Saiyans are good because he remembers seeing his mom as a baby?

This new lore wants to indicate good Saiyans existing in a series that had always portrayed them as deserving of their extinction. Adding more layers and nuance to an element is typically for the better, but this is not one of them. The character writing and narrative was actually better with the former interpretation

Goku’s parents being good is bad writing, end of story. Goku was naturally violent and Raditz was a psychopath. I have no clue when yall decided this was worth defending.

Broli is a case where I think is more tolerable, because he was ousted from the rest of his race, and survived the extinction. So narratively he is an isolated entity from the Saiyan race as a whole, and doesn’t affect the original story.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

Why? Goku only developed a respect for his dad, not Saiyans.



What’s wrong with Tarble?

With Broly, I like the idea that the most dangerous guy ever, a legendary being of chaos and destruction, doesn’t actually like fighting, but that does limit his potential as a character. He’s just going to hang around doing nothing from now on.

Tarble has the same problem Nu Broli has, they're not evil by nature. I take massive issue this new idea that Saiyans aren't inherently violent and self serving. It too undermines the themes of the Saiyan arc. Goku is supposed to be exceptional in spite of his circumstances. Pretty much every aspect that made Vegeta's speech in the Saiyan arc meaningful are no longer true beyond Goku being born weak. But even that itself is undermined by Bardock's wish. So many of the decisions made in modern Dragon Ball trample over some of the most meaningful things about the original run.

 

[Papasmurf]

Bardock's wish is ass, I agree. It can somewhat be made to mesh with previous events like Goku's heart restarting on its own (which didn't happen later in RoF or the Hit mini saga post FT) after Old Daimao fucked him over and the four star Dragon Ball saving his life against Tao though.

It still takes away from the idea that Goku is a seasoned warrior hardened from a lifetime of battles though, which undermines Vegeta's speech against Black (one of his rare badass moments in Super).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I’m more bothered by the fact that the wish only applied to Goku. Raditz grew up to be a fucking loser.

 

[Papasmurf]

I’m more bothered by the fact that the wish only applied to Goku. Raditz grew up to be a fucking loser.

Well Goku was fated to die from the heart virus at a similar age so...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well Goku was fated to die from the heart virus at a similar age so...

Bardock just wished for them to thrive/grow up well, not for immortality. My problem is that Raditz grew up to be a really pathetic guy.

Tarble has the same problem Nu Broli has, they're not evil by nature. I take massive issue this new idea that Saiyans aren't inherently violent and self serving. It too undermines the themes of the Saiyan arc. Goku is supposed to be exceptional in spite of his circumstances. Pretty much every aspect that made Vegeta's speech in the Saiyan arc meaningful are no longer true beyond Goku being born weak. But even that itself is undermined by Bardock's wish. So many of the decisions made in modern Dragon Ball trample over some of the most meaningful things about the original run.

I'd say Tarble is another character that was undermined by the abundance of good Saiyans. His OVA is basically a "Wait, Vegeta has a kid brother who's totally the opposite of him? Woah!" story, years before even DB Minus. But now there's Bardock, Gine, Broly, U6 Saiyans... Paragus is the only new Saiyan that isn't a good guy.

Is this the speech you're talking about? Vegeta just talks about class here. Or did Viz change something?

 

[Papasmurf]

Bardock just wished for them to thrive/grow up well, not for immortality. My problem is that Raditz grew up to be a really pathetic guy.

Well, at least he survived, while more powerful, adult Saiyans who were with Vegeta and Nappa did not. Plus Goku was even more of a weakling until training with Kaio.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

Bardock just wished for them to thrive/grow up well, not for immortality. My problem is that Raditz grew up to be a really pathetic guy.



I'd say Tarble is another character that was undermined by the abundance of good Saiyans. His OVA is basically a "Wait, Vegeta has a kid brother who's totally the opposite of him? Woah!" story, years before even DB Minus. But now there's Bardock, Gine, Broly, U6 Saiyans... Paragus is the only new Saiyan that isn't a good guy.

Is this the speech you're talking about? Vegeta just talks about class here. Or did Viz change something?

Yes, that's the speech. There is a lot contained in that exchange. The part that bugs me in regards to nice Saiyans is that Goku is supposed to represent the antithesis of Saiyan society and Vegeta is supposed to represent the best that society had to offer. It's more than just a physical exchange, it is an exchange of philosophies and when you strip Goku of a lot of what made him that antithesis of that society, you directly undermine the themes present in that exchange.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yes, that's the speech. There is a lot contained in that exchange. The part that bugs me in regards to nice Saiyans is that Goku is supposed to represent the antithesis of Saiyan society and Vegeta is supposed to represent the best that society had to offer. It's more than just a physical exchange, it is an exchange of philosophies and when you strip Goku of a lot of what made him that antithesis of that society, you directly undermine the themes present in that exchange.

I don't see any mention of Goku's good heart there at all there though...

The arcs that really addressed Goku's purer heart and motivations would be the Freeza and Boo arcs. And in the latter Vegeta admitted Goku may have seen his potential for redemption.

 

[最強のフュージョン]

I don't see any mention of Goku's good heart there at all there though...

The arcs that really addressed Goku's purer heart and motivations would be the Freeza and Boo arcs. And in the latter Vegeta admitted Goku may have seen his potential for redemption.

There doesn't need to be a mention of it. It's part of what makes Goku the antithesis of Saiyan society.

 

[Papasmurf]

There doesn't need to be a mention of it. It's part of what makes Goku the antithesis of Saiyan society.

Right, but not 100% of any society acts one given way. I agree that literally all Saiyans from U7 that have been (re)introduced since 2013 being good-hearted other than Paragus is a bit much though. Though Gine was stated to be a non-combatant anyway.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it's better to see them both as extremes. Vegeta was far more arrogant and cruel than any other Saiyan. OG Bardock, Nappa and Raditz all cared about their comrades in a way.

That said, most Saiyans were closer to Vegeta's side of the spectrum than Goku's. A Saiyan who didn't kill is something unheard of.

But the biggest offender for me isn't even trying to create more exceptions, but trying to act like Goku inherited his kindness from Bardock. Bro literally had to get a memory wipe and be raised by someone else to become a good guy!