The power of Goku and Vegeta (Non-god forms)

[Future Warrior]

So it's been widely debated across forums on how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their SSJ-SSJ3 forms compared to their Boo arc counterparts. I'm not sure if we had a thread dedicated to such a topic rather than just bringing it up while discussing a different one, so I think this is a good place to do it.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Unpopular opinion, but I think they're not that much stronger than their Buu arc selves.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd fully stand by the idea they're semi-relevant to their higher levels of power.

The biggest piece of evidence would be that SSJ Goku is shown to be able to physically compete with Hit's initial self and Beerus saying Goku's supposed to be stronger, and it seems doubtful he was factoring in Goku's higher forms when he could've just said so. In turn, the gap between Initial Hit and Less than 10% SSB Vegeta has to be less than that between SSG and SSB for Hit's Time Skip to have worked, and that gap in itself is something not too great in power or speed when SSG Vegeta could still react to Black in time to switch to Blue instantaneously when necessary.
The next piece of evidence is the fact SSG Goku felt a need to dodge Zamasu's telekinesis at all despite Shin barely being able to hold SS2 Gohan in place a few seconds, and we can't say something such as "Zamasu's telekinesis is far better in general" when that's not suggested to be the case at all. That said, the gap between SSG Goku and someone weaker than his SS3 self is suggested to be lower than that between Shin and SS2 Gohan, which even at its largest is still dwarfed by the gap between Z's Solar System level top tiers and guys that could destroy the U7 macrocosm in not too much time against a comparable opponent.

That, and most of the counter evidence tends to have little weight behind it. Things such as Trunks being compared to Gohan require remembering that Trunks had no better benchmark (A Boo that was never released and who Goku would be unaware of how much intel Shin was able to give being vague at best) and most of the relevance given to Boo Arc characters in the current arc is very contradictive on its own with things like a non-God Ki Dai Kaioshin Boo outperforming SSG tiers.

 

[Future Warrior]

That, and most of the counter evidence tends to have little weight behind it. Things such as Trunks being compared to Gohan require remembering that Trunks had no better benchmark (A Boo that was never released and who Goku would be unaware of how much intel Shin was able to give being vague at best) and most of the relevance given to Boo Arc characters in the current arc is very contradictive on its own with things like a non-God Ki Dai Kaioshin Boo outperforming SSG tiers.

Well Goku found it viable to make a comparison between Broli and Beerus in front of the former, yet they obviously have never met each other.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm currently taking the middle ground and thinking Goku can stomp his Boo Arc power, but is nowhere near relevant to his SSJG powers. Goku already started the series one shoting Cell as a SSJ1 in his head, after all.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Well Goku found it viable to make a comparison between Broli and Beerus in front of the former, yet they obviously have never met each other.

True, but that was a case of Goku being blown away by how strong Broly was in general and how much he wasn't expecting it. Against Trunks, he was both trying to gauge how strong was despite not having the best choice in training regimes as well as educate him on how different he was from back then with how he showed off SS3 pretty quickly. It wasn't as though Trunks blew away all expectations of what Goku thought he could conceivably achieve.

 

[Papasmurf]

I go with the same theory I have for GT Galu's lower forms upon attaining SSJ4, that the lower forms are way stronger than they were in BoG. No real other way to justify SSJ Galu not being drastically below ~10% SSJB Vegeta or SSJ Caulifla forcing 4th form ToP Freeza to transform despite his power being greater than in the FnF arc. Just to avoid potentially monstrous power creep upon Cabba, Caulifla or Kale attaining God forms I'll attribute the powering up of their lower forms to Whis's training rather than the absorbing God power thing from BoG though.

But if we're talking about possible intent that Toyotaro had when drawing these feats, I do think he probably has SSJG >>> SSJ3, and might possibly answer if asked in an interview about who's stronger between current SSJ Galu and SSJ Vegetto from the Boo arc or something that Vegetto is more powerful. But feats are much more easy to verify than something as vague as writer's intent.

 

[Future Warrior]

Well Goku found it viable to make a comparison between Broli and Beerus in front of the former, yet they obviously have never met each other.

True, but that was a case of Goku being blown away by how strong Broly was in general and how much he wasn't expecting it. Against Trunks, he was both trying to gauge how strong was despite not having the best choice in training regimes as well as educate him on how different he was from back then with how he showed off SS3 pretty quickly. It wasn't as though Trunks blew away all expectations of what Goku thought he could conceivably achieve.

He would have every reason to be blown away. We're talking about someone who's boost in power wouldn't be too dissimilar to Feeza's, and we know how shocked Goku was by that.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

[mention]Future Warrior[/mention] actually we don’t because the whole Freeza ordeal happened off screen

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm basing it on the movie.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He would have every reason to be blown away. We're talking about someone who's boost in power wouldn't be too dissimilar to Feeza's, and we know how shocked Goku was by that.

Freeza blew every opponent Goku had prior (other than Beerus) out of the water though. Trunks had certainly become unbelievably strong, but wouldn't warrant the same reaction after Goku had seen what someone else with great innate potential could do as well as seeing what things were like in other universes.

 

[Future Warrior]

He would have every reason to be blown away. We're talking about someone who's boost in power wouldn't be too dissimilar to Feeza's, and we know how shocked Goku was by that.

Freeza blew every opponent Goku had prior (other than Beerus) out of the water though. Trunks had certainly become unbelievably strong, but wouldn't warrant the same reaction after Goku had seen what someone else with great innate potential could do as well as seeing what things were like in other universes.

I think Trunks simply surpassing SSJ2 Gohan (at least during their warm-up) makes Goku's reaction very believable rather than him approaching the level of the gods in just his SSJ2 form. Goku isn't really complimenting Trunks at all if the latter was already far beyond that level of power in just his regular form.

Also, why would the likes of Goku and Vegeta feel like losing Fat Boo during the tournament be such a huge loss if even the likes of Piccolo is dimensions above him? I find it hard to believe that reaction was warranted if he was literally incapable of beating anybody at the U6 side anyway.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think Trunks simply surpassing SSJ2 Gohan (at least during their warm-up) makes Goku's reaction very believable rather than him approaching the level of the gods in just his SSJ2 form. Goku isn't really complimenting Trunks at all if the latter was already far beyond that level of power in just his regular form.

Goku had already gotten a taste of the strength of Saiyans and fighters from other universes, so CG Gohan being the only worthwhile benchmark honestly shouldn't impress Goku anywhere near as much as it did.

Also, why would the likes of Goku and Vegeta feel like losing Fat Boo during the tournament be such a huge loss if even the likes of Piccolo is dimensions above him? I find it hard to believe that reaction was warranted if he was literally incapable of beating anybody at the U6 side anyway.

Goku hadn't even had a chance to see how strong Piccolo had become or how strong the opponents were though, nor did he seem to make much effort to sense their Ki prior to battle, and it's highly doubtful Piccolo was just walking around at close to full power with how comparatively low to their true Ki the resting Ki of characters like Goku tend to be (eg. Tarble viewing a post-Boo Arc Base Goku's resting Ki as unimpressive).

 

[Future Warrior]

Goku had already gotten a taste of the strength of Saiyans and fighters from other universes, so CG Gohan being the only worthwhile benchmark honestly shouldn't impress Goku anywhere near as much as it did.

If we assume that Freeza and Hit were the only people he's met to reach God level since his training with Whis, then it makes a lot more sense. The last time he saw Trunks he was barely capable of even fighting a Cell Jr.

Goku hadn't even had a chance to see how strong Piccolo had become or how strong the opponents were though, nor did he seem to make much effort to sense their Ki prior to battle, and it's highly doubtful Piccolo was just walking around at close to full power with how comparatively low to their true Ki the resting Ki of characters like Goku tend to be (eg. Tarble viewing a post-Boo Arc Base Goku's resting Ki as unimpressive).

He already assumed that Piccolo would at least be able to use up some of Frost's stamina before he was able to see him in action. The same Frost that Vegeta still needed to go SSJ against. This does not imply that Fat Boo would have gotten demolished by someone of Botamo or Frost's level.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He already assumed that Piccolo would at least be able to use up some of Frost's stamina before he was able to see him in action. The same Frost that Vegeta still needed to go SSJ against. This does not imply that Fat Boo would have gotten demolished by someone of Botamo or Frost's level.

Good point, but it's not as though power is the only thing that makes Boo deadly. Pretty much any of his abilities can prove ridiculously broken for a tournament setting to the point a power gap may be seen as irrelevant regardless of its size when considering the only surefire ways of beating him in a tournament would be through ringout or by having magic to combat his infinite stamina.

In any case, I'd say the bigger matter would be Goku VS Hit, which makes it near impossible for Goku's SSJ form to be much lower than 10% of his SSB power when considering the gap between SSG and SSB was enough to break through a full power Hit's Time Skip whereas Vegeta couldn't break through that of a Hit more or less on SSJ Goku's level.

 

[Future Warrior]

Then that leaves me to my next point, that SSJ Goku was never really on par with Hit even in his suppressed state due to conflicting evidence of him being that powerful.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We're directly shown him fighting on par with him though. In a case of conflicting evidence, I'd say a feat like this trumps a few minor statements.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I was waiting to see someone else bring Goku vs Hit up. It’s barely any different from Base Goku vs pocket hands Hit; a mix of Hit not going all out yet (Eager to see Goku go Blue) and Goku predicting his moves.

And looking back on Piccolo vs Frost, nobody ever really notes that Piccolo is stronger than they expected.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

It’s barely any different from Base Goku vs pocket hands Hit;

That'd likely show how low the gap between base and SSJ has become in Super, if anything.

a mix of Hit not going all out yet (Eager to see Goku go Blue) and Goku predicting his moves.

Well yeah, Hit wasn't going all out as evidenced by his power up after Goku went SSG, but he definitely wasn't suggested to be pulling his punches at his initial level. There's also only so much leeway you can use to Goku predicting Hit's moves when enough of a gap would have him reeling or getting blitzed by the impact alone, Time Skip or not.

 

[Future Warrior]

We're directly shown him fighting on par with him though. In a case of conflicting evidence, I'd say a feat like this trumps a few minor statements.

But here's the thing though, they weren't on par with each other. Hit was trying to test the waters with Goku's ability to predict his time-skip ability, just as Goku was getting a feel of Hit's fighting prowess. Neither one of them were immediately trying to get the big win against each other at that moment.