ToP/Moro fight #18 and earthlings

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Have these guys gotten considerably stronger compared to their Z selves? We know #18 apparently closed the gap between herself and #17 in the Moro Arc, but what about ToP #18? She doesn't have any special feats, does she?

And what about the humans? I'd think training with #18 would make Kuririn at least Pre Rosat SSJ level strong, but he struggles with that Panda guy just as much as he did 2 months before, relying on Zangouken to win. Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu don't seem like anything special either.

And then there's Roshi... But he's as strong as he feels like being

 

[Pyro]

It's weird to see Android 18's performance. She was never stated or implied to have powered up. In fact, she said she only came because she was being paid (fuckin' hooker). But she backed up 17 against Saganbo and attacked Moro together as well. Moro said she and 17 had great energy, not singling out 17 as being stronger or much stronger, so that's kind of the nail in the coffin for me. Somehow, in 2 months, 18 went from unremarkable in the ToP to Complete Super Saiyan Blue tier (since that's how strong Seven-Three with Prime Moro's power would be and 17 was easily trashing him).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yep. There’s no mention whatsoever of her even getting stronger. Do you think she was stronger than usual in the ToP too @Pyro? And what about the Earthlings?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@SIAD @Captain Cadaver thoughts?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

#18 was definitely stronger in the Moro Arc based on her feats against Moro and perfect teamwork with #17 with her not lagging behind him at all. For her ToP self, she was likely far stronger than her Z self when considering she was able to fend off Ribrianne's group 3 on 1 despite Rozie having been shown capable of dodging a punch from Za Priccio, someone who Cabba went SSJ to beat.

For the humans, things seem mixed. Tenshinhan being shocked at how easily Base Galu beat someone they struggled with suggests they aren't complete fodder to his ToP base self, but this could very well just be a case of character stupidity with how Yamcha reminds him of the status quo pretty quickly and the humans were still able to fare well against Moro's subordinates 2 months prior; plus feats such as Jaco helping out against Saganbo or #18 not oneshotting Shimorekka seem to just suggest any sense of a power scale was being ignored at this point of the arc. There is 2 unnamed prisoners being able to clash evenly with SSJ Goku/Vegeta that could be brought up when they weren't even considered high-ranked ones with how they served under Yuzun whereas Yunba and the rest of those that went to Earth seemed significant enough for Moro to personally have follow him, but this point is more speculative when it could just be Yuzun's squad outrank everyone else other than Saganbo or Moro (especially considering Saganbo referred to Monster Yuzun as "unbeatable").
Overall, though it's possible for the humans to be stronger than their ToP Arc selves, there isn't anything to necessitate it. That said, judging their ToP selves is equally as inconsistent. You have things such as Tenshinhan being surprised Frost tanked his Kikoho despite having watched the fight between he and Galu or #17 saying Roshi seems to be strong (despite his sister having referred to SSJ Vegeta as nothing special during their match years prior) as well as having physically stopped Kahseral's attack and thrown him out the ring, or all of them being fast enough to dodge Magetta who wasn't exactly staggeringly slow for Base Vegeta; but you've also got Kuririn saying he had slacked off in training recently or Kahseral saying Roshi's power was trash and UI Roshi in general is an anomaly. At best, they're probably not far behind Base Goku at that point. At worst, Tenshinhan and Roshi still hadn't reached Boo Arc Kuririn's level.

 

[Pyro]

We know the humans are weaker than the Cell Games characters because they're weaker than Trunks and Goten, who were said to be stronger than Saganbo by Vegeta (sans Moro's additional power).

 

[SIAD]

I think like CC.

In the ToP Manga, I have the Humans, Android # 18 and Gohan at the same level as in the ending of the Arc of Majin Boo. At the time of dodging Magetta they had a colossal increase (by requirement of the plot), Gohan managed to get closer to the power of Goku SSJ (ToP), Android # 18 managed to be between Goku Base and SSJ (ToP), Humans managed to be enough strong so as not to be insignificant for Goku Base (ToP). I think that Goku and Vegeta increased their powers by training the Mafuba and the Rosat respectively, therefore Frost also increased their power between both Tournaments. Perhaps Tenshinhan thought that with his Shin Kikoho he could hurt Frost a little, but he did not count on Frost becoming stronger.

In the Arc Moro, within those 2 months, Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi progressed a lot, Yamcha went from being equal to his Arc Android counterpart to being stronger than Roshi. Chaoz surely progressed a lot too, but he still hasn't reached the level of Freeza (Namek). Android # 18 managed to get a power close to Android # 17, therefore both are close to the level of Goku PSSJB (Vs Zamasu / ToP).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

We know the humans are weaker than the Cell Games characters because they're weaker than Trunks and Goten, who were said to be stronger than Saganbo by Vegeta (sans Moro's additional power).

Do we know that for sure though? The only official statement confirming it was from a staff member of the anime for the ToP humans, which not only would only apply to the anime, but is pretty contradictive with what we're shown of Roshi VS Base Galu compared to SS3 Gotenks VS Copy Vegeta.

Trunks > Saganbo doesn't provide much in comparison to the humans when Vegeta was comparing Trunks to a Saganbo without Moro's power who was shown as superior to SS3 Galu, with us never seeing how a non-boosted Saganbo compared to any of the Dragon Team outside of that statement. Also, keep in mind the rest of Moro's goons had received a boost from him on New Namek by the time they arrived on Earth.

 

[Pyro]

The kids were shown taking on the 7 Cell Juniors, and it's never implied or stated that batch was any different in strength from the ones at the Cell Games. That puts the kids, individually, somewhere close to Cell Games Goku/Gohan tier, relatively. I don't see how the humans would have surpassed the Saiyan kids without some kind of statement from the adults, particularly Vegeta who takes pride in his son's strength.

I actually have no idea which statement from the anime staff member you're referring to. I was going by what's strictly in the manga.

 

[SSJ2]

Cell Games Goku can block attacks from Jiren?

 

[Pyro]

OK, let's play that game. 17 got so strong training with the Cell Juniors, so now they're all Super Saiyan God level, which makes the kids God level without doing anything noteworthy. Run with it and see how it works for you.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I don't see how the humans would have surpassed the Saiyan kids without some kind of statement from the adults, particularly Vegeta who takes pride in his son's strength.

The same method Piccolo surpassed post-God Base Galu in little time or how #17 got so strong without even being explicitly stated to train - plot hax .

The humans lack explicit statements, that's true, but their feats and other lighter implications suggest them to not be entirely fodder to some characters that are beyond CG tier. I wouldn't say with full certainty that these solidify the humans being pretty strong by late Z standards with how inconsistent some aspects are, but I wouldn't say Goten/Trunks not explicitly being brought up as a benchmark for them meaning they're inferior is more than conjecture.
The most comparison we get to them is Goten and Trunks being left out of the fight with Moro's goons without any need which, if anything, is more of a point towards the humans than the kids.

 

[SSJ2]

OK, let's play that game. 17 got so strong training with the Cell Juniors, so now they're all Super Saiyan God level, which makes the kids God level without doing anything noteworthy. Run with it and see how it works for you.

Honestly makes a lot of sense.

 

[Pyro]

Not really. It's way too much assuming, like this whole thread.

The humans didn't do anything in the tournament. Maybe people are getting things mixed up with the anime version. In the manga, Krillin was knocked out first by Frost after dodging a punch from Magetta (that Tenshinhan, Roshi, Gohan, and Piccolo also dodged). Next we saw Frost one-handedly dealing with Tenshinhan and Roshi, who were visibly straining while he was grinning. Tenshinhan was eliminated next after Frost tanked his Shin Kikoho (or "Chi Kung Pao" in Viz), going out with one punch before he could even react. The humans never fight anybody aside from Frost, who was clearly taking it easy on them since we later saw him with an aura and straining to eliminate most of the Universe 9 fighters aside from the Danger Trio. Goku also stated during the recruitment dialogue that #18 was "way stronger" than Krillin, so there's that.

I don't believe the "Tenshinhan was shocked his attack was tanked" argument holds up either because, well, it's the Shin Kikoho.

Additionally, Goten and Trunks were brought up as contenders after Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Boo, and Gohan. It was only when Vegeta adamantly denied involving them that Goku said, "In that case," and included the humans. Granted, he didn't think of #18 until Krillin was mentioned, but he did give her some form of praise when doing so.

I mean, there's just nothing I can latch onto in the way of having the humans anywhere near the Saiyans. The manga is very condensed and conservative in that regard compared to the anime.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

#17 saying Roshi seems to be strong

#17 said SSJ Vegeta was very impressive too though

Roshi = ToP 17 > 18 > 17 = SSJ Vegeta?

Cell Games Goku can block attacks from Jiren?

Only if he paid attention to Roshi's UI classes

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Krillin was knocked out first by Frost after dodging a punch from Magetta (that Tenshinhan, Roshi, Gohan, and Piccolo also dodged).

Which in itself is an impressive feat when it's not as though Base Vegeta could casually dodge Magetta's attacks, not to mention all of them dodging in a similar timeframe instead of Gohan and Piccolo being far ahead of the pack.

I don't believe the "Tenshinhan was shocked his attack was tanked" argument holds up either because, well, it's the Shin Kikoho.

I don't put much stock into it either, and the above feat is questionable too, but the fact this feat and statement exist shows the manga is entirely definitive on its stance of the humans being trash in general.

 

[Pyro]

Is it really that impressive? We've seen weaker fighters dodge stuff from stronger fighters plenty of times without it saying anything about their strength.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Speed tends to correlate with Ki quite a bit though, at least up until the Cell Arc, so I'd say it's fairly impressive if not chalking it up as an inconsistency when considering they didn't just dodge it, but did so in a similar timeframe to such relevant characters as Piccolo and Gohan (the latter of whom was at least equal to his Boo Arc Ultimate self at that point).

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Captain Cadaver what do you make of Base Vegeta > SSJ Trunks > Saganbo > rest of the Galactic Brigade >= Humans?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I've got no direct issue with it if viewing the other feats as inconsistencies typical of Super. As I said, the low-end interpretation of their power would be them being not much stronger than their Boo Arc selves (minus Roshi). However, the amount of feats and statements I mentioned certainly makes such a low-end interpretation questionable at best.