Ultimate Gohan (Boo) >= Goku Ssj3 (Boo)

[kriss-]

Manga Only Discussion Something for the Manga only enthusiasts

6. Fusion [#BO2#FUS]
Chapter: 469 (DBZ 275), P6.1-7
Context: after Goku laments that Gohan and Vegeta are dead
Goku: “I coulda used Fusion…”
Dende: “Fusion…! Merging together, right? That’s the specialty art of the people of Planet Metamor!”
Goku: “So you know about it, Dende…! That’s right, some people from Metamor who I met in the afterlife taught me that art…It’s a merging technique which can only be performed if two people are fairly close in both power and body size…In other words, by having two people merge into one, they’re able to become a single, new human with amazing power which either of them on their own absolutely wouldn’t be capable of. It really is incredible! Those two from Metamor were completely weak and gentle on their own, but by using Fusion they transformed into a substantial warrior! [ ] …I was just taught the art, but I ain’t never tested it out…There wasn’t anybody on par with me in the afterlife…”

Goten & Trunks tried to merge as Super Saiyans but they couldn't control their Chi properly, it was too hard for them Pre-RoSaT. They countered this by being able to master the Metamoran and transform AFTER fusing.

Goku wasn't aware of this since he didn't suggest it in the first place and asked them to fuse as Super Saiyans from the beginning. So the theory of fusing in his Base form is contradicted already.

Goku says that to perform fusion dance the two fusees must be "fairly close in power". You can see that that's slightly different to the "exactly the same power" they need when actually fusing.

So for two people to fuse, they need to be close in power, and once that requirement is met, they need to match their Ki to be exactly the same as each other. This is further backed up by Goku saying he couldn't fuse with anyone because there was no one on par with him in the afterlife, despite Goku being able to suppress. Since Goku planned to fuse with Gohan via the fusion dance, that would make Ultimate Gohan "fairly close in power" to at least some form of Goku, likely SSj3.

All evidence suggests Goku would perform fusion as a SSj3 because he wasn't/isn't aware of transforming into Super Saiyan after fusing, and suppressing battle power wasn't relevant enough for Goku to fuse on Planet Metamor, because the two product of the sum need to be CLOSE in power to begin with BEFORE matching their Ki.

:what

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

This slapped to the faces of wankers of Gohan and Gotenks.

 

[kriss-]

By the time Goku saw Gotenks he was already a Super Saiyan 3. He didn't see what happened inside the RoSaT so it's illogical for him to know that one can master fusion and go up and down the Super Saiyan levels. So when he wants to fuse with Teen Gohan, Vegeta Pre-Majin/Majin or Ultimate Gohan, it would probably be as a SSj, SSj2 or SSj3, for the best results. Because he didn't master fusion to begin with, and he doesn't know about transforming after fusing -and because it took Gotenks a while to learn that, than it's illogical for him to assume he could.

I think it's becoming more clear that Dragonball Super's power-scaling prior to the arrival of Beerus is actually correct. People just need to take off their Gotenks and Gohan goggles and pay a little more attention to my threads.

 

[ahill1]

I think Gohan was just hopelessly searching for a way to defeat Bootenks and the first option he thought was fusion (without thinking of his rules or anything).

Like we know, Goku cannot be close to Ultimate Gohan, since he was no match for a guy (Super Boo) who got crushed by this Gohan.

 

[kriss-]

Well you're contradicted by the evidence above. Toriyama put it there for a purse, and the Elder Kaioshin didn't contradict Goku's opinion about it working or it being enough to defeat Boo, he immediately contradicted Goku by the amount of time it would take to learn.

There are other reasons:

a) Goku taking Vegeta's feelings into accordance. Contradictory to the Cell Games scenario where Goku blatantly tells Vegeta that he's stronger, is Goku only using Ssj3 against Kid Boo after Vegeta' admission to wanting to see it for himself. Goku asks if it's alright because he won't get a turn to fight Boo and it might be too powerful for him; obviously it isn't though.

b) Super Boo powering up into Buff Boo and back down to Kid Boo. His Chi isn't noted as decreasing after it goes up so it's only logical that it didn't decrease by very much, and that it wasn't significant enough for Toriyama to jot down. We are always told whether or not a character powers up or gets weaker, because it didn't happen here, than it's obvious that it didn't occur. Kid Boo is obviously weaker than Buff Boo, but he's closer to him than Super Boo is.

c) Prior to making Battle of Gods, he re-read the entire Japanese Manga. Because his native language is Japanese and because he wrote the fuckin' thing, his interpretation is more accurate than the Herms translations. He also wrote all the dialogue for Battle of Gods. Vegeta essentially shits himself at the idea of Goku losing. Ultimate Gohan get's mucked and immediately he is relieved once Goku shows up to the battle field. Goku is extremely cocky and offers to take down SSj3 to SSj2 for Beerus. Goku says that Beerus being the strongest is what concerns him, because he was previously the strongest until the God of Destruction arrived. Please don't argue that Goku's character wouldn't want to fight his family. Because in another Toriyama interview, he says Goku doesn't care whether its family or enemies, he wants to be the best.

So really, the argument is not entirely outlandish or without supporting evidence. Toriyama may have actually intended this part of the series to be subjective for either side.

To each his own.

 

[ahill1]

a) The not hurting Vegeta's feelings happened before they even formed Vegetto. At that time, Vegeta already knew about SSJ3. Goku wouldn't fight the guy who absorbed all his family and friends just to spare Vegeta's feelings? lol.

b) After Goku and Vegeta escaped Boo's body they celebrate momentarily before getting scared because Boo's ki was increasing (Buff Boo). Then they note he transforms again, and finally physically shrinks down, which Vegeta thinks is funny. Goku says they succeeded. The two of them fells relieved. This is an indication that Boo's ki actually decreased. Goku and Vegeta feel safe because they sensed Boo's ki lower.

 

[kriss-]

a) Goku wouldn't use SSj3 without Vegeta's admission. That much is clear. He even runs away to the Kaioshin realm and tries to figure out a plan that doesn't involve using SSj3.

b) Herms makes the note that Vegeta isn't talking about his Chi, but his size. Goku & Vegeta have both judged characters based on their sizes before.

Boo's Chi isn't noted as decreasing, so that's a reach on your part to suggest it decreased by a tremendous amount.

 

[Six Trails]

When has Goku judged a character by their size before? The only example I can think of is the Cell Junior, and that was Goku actually claiming not to underestimate them because of their size.

 

[kriss-]

He judged Kaioshin based on his appearance. So he decided to test him out and shot him with a Chi attack.

So the 'Goku doesn't judged based on size or appearance', is just a desperate plea and cop-out.

 

[Six Trails]

Now you're shifting goal posts. We were talking about size, not appearance. I just gave you a specific example of Goku not underestimating an opponent based on their size, so no, my argument is not a "desperate plea and cop-out", it's supported.

 

[kriss-]

5. Elder Kaioshin and his power-up [#BO2#EKS]
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P6.5, P7.2, P8.2-3
Elder Kaioshin: “That’s ri~~~ight. Lo~~~ong, lo~~~ong ago, there was this ridiculously strong and ba~~~ad dude. Well, not as much as this Majin Boo guy now, but still~~~. He did it, he se~~~ealed me away inside that sword. Me here. He was freaked out by how fearsome I am. Yep, sure wa~~~as.”
Goku: “…He don’t look like that amazin’ an old-timer…I’ll test him out a bit.”
*Goku blasts Elder Kaioshin, who gets really hurt*
Goku: “…Like I thought, he’s just an old blowhard…”

a) Old Kaioshin saws there was a ridiculously strong dude (Beerus) who sealed him away because of how 'fearsome' he was.
b) Goku thinks Old Kaioshin is talking about his strength.
c) Goku judged him based on how he looks.
d) Old Kaioshin says it wasn't his power he was scared of, but his latent ability.

Yes, Goku definitely judges characters based on their appearance and size.

Kid Boo and Elder Kaioshin are generally the same size.

It occurs within the same story arc as well.

I shouldn't have to explain Goku's train of thought to you guys.

 

[Six Trails]

Two questions.

1. Do you even bother to read the other person's post when debating with them?
2. Do you know how to stay on topic in a debate?

Again, we are talking about size specifically, not general appearance. Not only that, but Goku can't even sense Old Kaioshin. Not only can Goku actually sense Boo, he was just sensing Boo's Ki before as he was transitioning from Evil Boo into Buff Boo. Therefore, your argument hinges on an erroneous comparison and is reaching at best.

 

[kriss-]

1. Do you even bother to read the other person's post when debating with them?

We're debating?

2. Do you know how to stay on topic in a debate?

Perhaps.

Old Kaioshin and Kid Boo are the same size. Goku judged based on appearance so that's good enough for me.

 

[Six Trails]

Yes, we are debating. If you don't know what debating is, here is a definition:

de·bate
dəˈbāt/
verb
gerund or present participle: debating
argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.
"the board debated his proposal"

Are you arguing with me over Goku judging opponents based on size? Yes, you are. Now quit it with your "we're debating!??!?!?!" cop-out that you pull every time you run out excuses/counters.

Old Kaioshin and Pure Boo being the same size means nothing. One can be sensed and the other can't.

 

[kriss-]

Oh, apparently it's a non consensual debate.

Well... even if you think Goku wasn't judging Kid Boo based on his appearance -which I don't, the artwork clearly shows that Goku has a big smirk on his face once Vegeta comments on how he grew small. So it's pretty obvious Goku did.

You can't even argue that the entire point was making Boo weak enough for them to fight. Because, Goku didn't want to use SSj3 in the first place. No Majin up until this time period was weak enough to beat without SSj3.

So it's clear that Goku thinks he and Vegeta can take him based on his size and without becoming SSj3. His facial expression says it all to me.

Although I suppose it might be possible that in his initial form he was weaker than a SSj2, but that really isn't supported and everything seems to go against it.

 

[ahill1]

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

So, like you can see, Goku was planning in turning Boo in that fat, which he could not win without SSJ3, even with Vegeta's help.

 

[kriss-]

That 'successfully' rescue everyone who got absorbed part makes me wonder. Anyways, Goku deliberately refused to fight Kid Boo as a SSj3 since he ran towards the Kaioshin realm and tried to think of a way to defeat Boo. You'd think that using Super Saiyan 3 would be a pretty straight forward option, but it isn't and by the merit of that implication, it wasn't.

 

[sei'taer]

Goten & Trunks tried to merge as Super Saiyans but they couldn't control their Chi properly, it was too hard for them Pre-RoSaT. They countered this by being able to master the Metamoran and transform AFTER fusing.

This never happens. They're shown to have difficulty matching their chi levels as SSJ when goku first asks them to do so, they're never shown to fail fusion because of it. They're never shown to have issue with this in base either despite the same issue being present. They're only shown to fail the dance itself.

Also as for the topic, this is just another case of what toriyama intending and the text actually saying being different. He probably never intended for gohan or gotenks to be massively stronger than goku. But the way he wrote the text implies differently. Are goku and goku close in power because goku intended to fuse? Or is there a large difference in power because goku wouldn't even fight super buu when gohan was far stronger than him?

It's the same contradictions that plague the entire rest of the buu saga.

 

[kriss-]

If Gotenks could turn Super Saiyan after fusing before entering the RoSaT, than he would have when Boo was kicking his ass. He couldn't. Not until he enters the RoSaT and masters the technique.

To nail my logic down completely, Goku asks Old Kaioshin whether or not he should become a Super Saiyan before using the Potara because he's under the assumption that he won't be able to do it after fusing.

So no, Gotenks couldn't turn SSj after fusing Pre-RoSaT.

Are goku and goku close in power because goku intended to fuse?

The evidence seems to dictate so.

Or is there a large difference in power because goku wouldn't even fight super buu when gohan was far stronger than him?

Rather than taking things at face value, look at the larger context within the story.

When Kid Boo appears Goku runs away and doesn't want to use SSj3 and would rather find an alternative means of fighting Pure Boo. It's only when Pure Boo appears does Goku acknowledge fighting him as he and Vegeta are. Even than, Goku is adamant about using SSj3 because Vegeta wouldn't get a turn. But after fighting at that level, he grows a bit cocky and starts to show off. He ends up fucking himself up and loses the fight.

So if Goku wasn't going to use SSj3 against Kid Boo, was he really going to use it against Super Boo?....

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

So if Boo turns into Skinny or fatso then how they're [Goku and Vegeta] beat Boo without SS3?