Ultimate Gohan (Boo) >= Goku Ssj3 (Boo)

[kriss-]

Goku clearly never intended to use SSj3. Even at the expense of sacrificing Earth. That much is clear. At this point, this is a fact.

His original plan was to revert Boo back to Innocent Boo and rescue everybody successfully. These two key-points go hand in hand.

a) Boo is weak enough so he won't need SSj3.
b) Everybody else will be there to help.

Class Dismissed

 

[Papasmurf]

I can't believe that Goku not wanting to hurt Vegeta's feelings argument is still floating around. Then again, this is Tosh...

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Goku clearly never intended to use SSj3. Even at the expense of sacrificing Earth. That much is clear. At this point, this is a fact.

His original plan was to revert Boo back to Innocent Boo and rescue everybody successfully. These two key-points go hand in hand.

a) Boo is weak enough so he won't need SSj3.
b) Everybody else will be there to help.

Class Dismissed

let's say he turn into skinny Boo. Can SS2 Goku and Vegeta take him?

 

[Papasmurf]

Lol @ Goku "not using SSJ3 even at the expense of sacrificing Earth"

 

[kriss-]

Goku clearly never intended to use SSj3. Even at the expense of sacrificing Earth. That much is clear. At this point, this is a fact.

His original plan was to revert Boo back to Innocent Boo and rescue everybody successfully. These two key-points go hand in hand.

a) Boo is weak enough so he won't need SSj3.
b) Everybody else will be there to help.

Class Dismissed

let's say he turn into skinny Boo. Can SS2 Goku and Vegeta take him?

Vegeta: “It’s no use…No matter how many of us go at him…Not if we fight in the ordinary way…”

Piccolo: “…No, it probably wouldn’t matter how many people went at him…He wasn’t at that level…”

Context: after Boo and Goku fight for awhile
Goku: “So he hardly took any damage?

These quotes go hand in hand.

Goku doesn't want to use Super Saiyan 3, we've ascertained that by now.

Vegeta is the one whom fought Boo, not Piccolo or Goku. Vegeta knows for a fact that they cannot defeat Boo the ordinary way -by physically pummeling him, and the only actual way to defeat him is by a Chi attack.

Even after knowing Vegeta died against Majin Boo, Goku still isn't aware of Boo's seeming invincibility to physical attacks until he fights him.

So yes, after fighting with Majin Boo and now being aware of his regeneration -invincibility to physical attacks, it might be possible for them to manage something against him until the others wake up, or perhaps manage something in general. There are countless scenarios where a team of weaker fighters can manage something against stronger something.

Goku's statement:

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

Is evidence of that.

 

[Victorious]

Well, lets pretend SSj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan are close. I think Ultimate Gohan would one shot SSJ3 Goku, but that's another point of topic which i'll address maybe later. But let's pretend they are almost neck and neck. Why would Goku Metamorian fuse with Ultimate Gohan while he's an SSJ3? The Saiyans have always fused with one another but while they are in the same form. So this suggests Ultimate Gohan would supppress himself down to Base Goku's level and then they'd fuse if they Metamorian fused.

 

[kriss-]

Base fusions have never done anything impressive. Even Vegetto -whose the product of a better ritual, couldn't stand to Boohan in the original Manga in only his Base form.

And you're arguing Gohan would perform fusion in his Base form and miraculously defeat Boo? What a cop-out.

a) They haven't mastered fusion.
b) Goten & Trunks couldn't go up the Super Saiyan levels until they mastered it.
c) Goku asked Old Kaioshin if he should become a super saiyan before merging with Vegeta, because he still believes you won't be able to do it after fusing.
d) Goku has never tried the fusion before, therefore he wouldn't be able to master it like Goten or Trunks did. Also, they achieved SSj3 which took him years to learn. The same thing would apply to the fusion in regards to transforming after fusing.
e) You're arguing that Gokhan Base, could stand to Bootenks or Boohan when Vegetto couldn't?

Get the fuck out of here.

They need to be close in battle power before performing the fusion , otherwise it won't work. This has to occur before using suppression to perform the ritual. Otherwise Goku could have used suppression and fused on planet Metamor.

So for Goku to fuse with Ultimate Gohan, he would need to be close to Gohan, likely SSj3.
:Krillin

 

[Victorious]

There's no statement that Goten and Trunks need to 'master' it though to go from base to SSJ after they have fused. They just didnt know because it was never taught to them IMO. Simple ignorance is the explanation why they didnt do it pre RoSaT and why Kamicollo didnt know they could . If Goku actually asked Elder Kaioshin an "if" or "should I" question then that proves my point. He already knew fusing with Gohan either in base or SSJ was a possibility and was just asking Elder Kaioshin which one was better. But anyway that's Porta and not Metamorian. As for Gokhan yes i think Porta base Gokhan can stomp Buutenks, that's very much implied by Elder Kaioshin. Not sure about Metamorian Gokhan though, he should be much weaker.

 

[Victorious]

Ohh shit, i just thought of something. Tosh can you post the quote where Goku asks Elder Kaioshin if he should transform to SSJ before he fuses with Gohan? Is it Gohan or Vegeta? I thought it was Gohan. If Goku is asking questions about whether he should go SSJ before fusing with Gohan that means he COULD be an SSJ and fuse with Ultimate Gohan. Which ruins my theory they need to be in the same form to fuse in Metamorian fusion. So if SSJ why not SSJ3 i guess. But i could just say he's just wanting to learn about Porta. Saves my theory.

 

[kriss-]

There's no statement that Goten and Trunks need to 'master' it though to go from base to SSJ after they have fused. They just didnt know because it was never taught to them IMO.

Gotenks would have went Super Saiyan when Boo was kicking his ass.

If Goku actually asked Elder Kaioshin an "if" or "should I" question then that proves my point

The boys were only capable of doing so after training, otherwise they would have when Boo had them on the ropes.

He already knew fusing with Gohan either in base or SSJ was a possibility and was just asking Elder Kaioshin which one was better.

Incorrect.

Goku is asking whether or not he should become a Super Saiyan before fusing because he doesn't think it's possible after fusing.

Try not to mix the context up to suit your theories.

As for Gokhan yes i think Porta base Gokhan can stomp Buutenks, that's very much implied by Elder Kaioshin. Not sure about Metamorian Gokhan though, he should be much weaker.

With the Metamoran, two powers have to be close in power before performing the ritual. Suppression doesn't work.

There is also no evidence that Gohan can transform after the ritual. During Super, even Videl became a Super Saiyan, so please don't argue that.

 

[Victorious]

Gotenks would have gone SSJ against Fatso if he knew he could IMO, he just didnt try cause he assumed he could not. Especially after his conversation with Kamicollo telling him he needs to stay and redo the fusion in SSJ to fight Fat Buu. Simple ignorance is enough to explain everything. In Fusion Reborn Vegeta and Goku Metamorian fused in base and then went SSJ as Gogeta, were they mastered? I doubt it. And Goku asking elder Kaioshin if he should go SSJ before or after fusing with Gohan means he can go SSJ as Gokhan when fusing in base, no training or 'mastering' required. If there's only 1 possibility why ask? It's nonsenical to ask if he thinks there's only 1 possible way. Right? But yeah this is all regarding porta.

 

[kriss-]

Gotenks would have gone SSJ against Fatso if he knew he could IMO, he just didnt try cause he assumed he could not. Especially after his conversation with Kamicollo telling him he needs to stay and redo the fusion in SSJ to fight Fat Buu. Simple ignorance is enough to explain everythin

In your Universe, the characters are fucking retarded.

If Gotenks could have went Super Saiyan, he would have. He wouldn't sit there, get pummeled on and NOT TRY to turn Super Saiyan to defend himself.

That's utter silliness.

In Fusion Reborn Vegeta and Goku fused in base and then went SSJ as Gogeta, were they mastered? I doubt it.

Please don't ever bring up the movies or anime ever again.

And Goku asking elder Kaioshin if he should go SSJ before or after fusing with Gohan means he can go SSJ as Gokhan when fusing in base, no traing required. If there's only 1 possibility why ask? It's nonsenical to ask if he thinks there's only 1 possible way.

Goku asked if he should turn Super Saiyan before fusing, not after. Don't even try to twist the context. He only asked because he wouldn't be able to under the conditions of the Metamoran. The Potara isn't burdened by that.

So no, it doesn't prove that he can, it's simply a reach on your end.

 

[Victorious]

We don't know how the fight between Gotenks and Fat Buu went down. He could have just been one shot fodderized like how Fatso hit Gohan unconscious or Dabura in the eyes. Can you paste the quote Tosh of Goku and the Elder Kaioshin about fusing with Gohan? If Goku is asking a question to Elder Kaioshin then he's expecting a yes or no answer. So in Goku's mind there's two possible outcomes. What are these outcomes? "Should i turn SSJ before fusing with Gohan Elder Kaioshin?" Elder Kaioshin can only answer yes or no. Now Tosh tell me the result we would get with both a yes and no answer.

 

[Victorious]

Anyway i don't think any argument dealing with Goku and Elder Kaioshin's convo proves anything, since it all has to do with a conversation about porta fusion and not Metamorian . As far as i know there's no evidence at all Saiyans can Metamorian fuse with one and be in different forms. If Goku and Gohan Metamorian fuse Gohan is gonna have to suppress down to base Goku's level and then they'll fuse.

 

[kriss-]

We don't know how the fight between Gotenks and Fat Buu went down. He could have just been one shot fodderized like how Fatso hit Gohan unconscious or Dabura in the eyes. Can you paste the quote Tosh of Goku and the Elder Kaioshin about fusing with Gohan? If Goku is asking a question to Elder Kaioshin then he's expecting a yes or no answer. So in Goku's mind there's two possible outcomes. What are these outcomes? "Should i turn SSJ before fusing with Gohan Elder Kaioshin?" Elder Kaioshin can only answer yes or no. Now Tosh tell me the result we would get with both a yes and no answer.

Oh, I forgot.

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P11.4-5
Context: after Piccolo says to try Fusion again, as Super Saiyans
Gotenks: “Hehhehheh…Aren’t you underestimating me? Like this, I’m more than enough to defeat Majin Boo.”
Piccolo: “Yo-you idiot! What are you saying?! You don’t know anything about Majin Boo’s fearsomeness! No matter how incredible you may be, at that level there’s still absolutely no way you’d be able to win!”

This statement solidifies the fact that the technique wasn't mastered yet. Piccolo wants them to try as Super Saiyans but Gotenks' refuses. If he could simply turn 'Super Saiyan' at will, he could simply do so now, or during the time Boo had him on the ropes, but he can't.

So no. Gokhan can't turn Super Saiyan after doing the Metamoran ritual, unless he masters the technique first. Even the shitty Daizenshuu recognizes this.

 

[Victorious]

Past the quote when they are in the RoSaT. Kamiccolo IIRC says that he didnt know Gotenks could go SSJ...after the kids had already Metamorian fused in base.

My theory on this issue holds just as much logical weight as yours. They just simply didnt know, it's ignorance. They didnt know how to perform the damn fusion until Goku taught them so how would they know the specifics?

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo brought up Super Saiyan and Gotenks would undoubtedly had transformed if he could. Under pressure, the boys are shown to do this. So it makes no sense that their fused counterpart wouldn't.

You're speculation holds no value and makes you look like an imbecile.

 

[Victorious]

Yeah but Kamicollo later said he didn't know a fusion which starts in base could even go SSJ. He would have been expecting Gotenks to go SSJ in the RoSaT if your theory held more weight. Because according to you Kamicollo already knew Gotenks would be able to go SSJ if he just trained. But he was totally surprised by Gotenks going from base to SSJ in the RoSaT. Considering all fusions ever shown could go from base to SSJ without training there's no reason to think it requires training. Kamicollo is just implied to be totally ignorant.

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo brought up Super Saiyan and Gotenks would undoubtedly had transformed if he could. Under pressure, the boys are shown to do this. So it makes no sense that their fused counterpart wouldn't.

 

[Victorious]

My last reply answers that.