Vegeta (vs jheese)

[Papasmurf]

Ginyu implies he can access a new body's full power with his remarks. Goku flat out tells him he can't use his body and Ginyu takes note. Ginyu should be able to access other people's new bodies easily. Either way it's irrelevant, Ginyu in Vegeta's body merely has to compete with Krillin and Gohan, Ginyu and Goku are out of the picture.

Ginyu in Goku's body can't compete with Gohan, let alone the duo. Goku is a Saiyan and thus has similar abilities to Vegeta (stated). Goku was the one to deduce Ginyu's power would be shit before it was pointed out because his control over Ginyu's body was also shit. He without any further exposition of Ginyu's body change immediately conclues Vegeta's body will be stronger than Ginyu was in his own. U wot m8?

 

[p123]

Vegeta doesn't have Kaioken. Goku used Kaioken to showcase that amazing battle power. Goku is not the norm, it might not be a Saiyan thing, it could be a ki control thing. Goku never suggests it has anything to do with his species.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku even without Kaioken is like double Jheese's power. If Vegeta was weaker than that (60k or whatever), then by default Goku's go to assumption would be that Vegeta's body would be even weaker than that. The opposite is what's implied.

So tell me, how does Goku arrive to the conclusion that Ginyu will get a big power up from acquiring Vegeta's body that is weaker than his normal power? Hearkens back to the leap of faith thing I mentioned about Ginyu who just now had trouble controlling Goku's Saiyan body magically assuming he can do better with Vegeta's body that's equally different to his own, no? 1 1

 

[p123]

Sure, it's quite possible it's not a Saiyan body issue. It could be a ki control issue. Ginyu not being able to access Krillen, Gohan or Goku's power and being able to access Vegeta's power is quite possible.

Vegeta being 250k is a leap of faith bro, not what I'm saying.

 

[p123]

Goku tells him that it is his body and there's no way he could pull of Kaioken. He doubts he can bring out half of his power.

Ginyu thinks he's bluffing. It's quite clear this is the first time this has ever happened to Ginyu, he assumes he can use it's full power right away.

 

[Papasmurf]

It is a ki control issue. Goku had ki control issues in Ginyu's body despite having better ki control than him previously. He used this fact to postulate that Ginyu would share the same issue, and Ginyu was weakened because of it. Ginyu getting his ass whooped by Gohan and Krillin proved that assumption correct.

Now Goku with no knowledge of Ginyu ever having success controlling other bodies well (as neither of them could control the other well), says Vegeta's much weaker body will have greater power than his own.

Broken logic much? See how much more sense it makes for Vegeta to have surfaced power much greater than Jheese's (confirmed), which belies the weak feats he had before, and for him to show much more power than previously when he cleaned Ginyu's clock, leading Ginyu who believed Goku's full power to be 180,000+ and for Goku who knows his base power is way above 60,000 to conclude in Vegeta's body Ginyu would be even stronger. Vegeta also notes no power increase after napping, and shows no surprise at how much more power he was able to put out than before he went to sleep. If 500K was his hidden full power (as he never states what he uses before is his full power), that makes perfect sense.

Clear which is the logical option

 

[p123]

Sure, Goku has never switched bodies with anyone before. He makes a note of how he's not used to the body. Yet Ginyu on the other hand, makes no statements about the same. Ginyu has switched bodies with someone before, he's clearly not effected by it until he is literally told he is not as powerful as he thinks he is. Ginyu goes so far as to assume Goku is bluffing.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku has never switched bodies before, but he has just now and seen both parties get weaker. If Vegeta was stronger than his baseline power was, it'd make sense for Ginyu to have gotten stronger as well. Instead he arrives to the conclusion a weaker body would yield stronger results based on no evidence, and Ginyu also considers it a certainty that he will rape the duo that dominated him in said body when he just now had no success with another Saiyan.

This in an arc full of uncertain statements? Ginyu and Goku both assume Vegeta will yield greater results when he is weaker than Goku after just seeing how they both got weaker from the switch? Goku thinks it's unlikely he will get strong enough to fight 3rd form Freeza after healing even though he already stated he should handle a 10x Kaioken by now. Nail says Piccolo might have been able to surpass Freeza even though fusing with Kami is a definitely huge increase. Clear uncertainties there.

And they're certain Vegeta who's weaker than Goku will give Ginyu a stronger body after he just failed to use Goku's body which is >> Vegeta's.

No need to even continue on how illogical this is. You're a hack.

If Ginyu after his recent failure thinks without a doubt he'll have higher battle power in Vegeta's Saiyan body, isn't it the logical conclusion to think Vegeta > Goku without a doubt? I think so.

 

[p123]

Hmm... Looks like it.

However, Ginyu appears to be a novice at this. He doesn't complain about any ki issues until he finds out how strong he is. So he's clearly better at it then Goku. But still nowhere close to his base power.

I guess Ginyu has probably only changed bodies a handful of times. Once he got a 120,000 body, there was nowhere to go from there but down, besides Freeza of course. I think it's no coincidence that Ginyu is #2 here, I think he stole that body. He must not have had to get into immediate battle with his tactic of hurting himself first.

I think I'm ready to concede Vegeta Base > Goku Base, not quite, but I think for now I will have to. But Vegeta Base > Kaioken is not necessary.

You must be joking about your hack comment. Being wrong on one topic makes me a hack, looks like someone is harboring some resentment over there right gookie?

 

[Papasmurf]

Glad you see the light.

I consider 250,000 the more sensible one since Ginyu doesn't know that Goku doubled his power with an unnatural boost and so overestimates Goku's base power. It also lessens Vegeta having a massive boost if he's just doubling his power when he fights Freeza instead of going like 5x or something.

I agree Ginyu rarely ever came across anyone that strong though, since he openly says the only people above the Ginyu Force should be Freeza. Freeza does say people have forced him to transform before, but I doubt Ginyu ever took any of their bodies since he's only 120,000.

 

[p123]

Who the fuck made Freeza transform is what I want to know. Meh... I'll have to search harder. None of his feats suggest such power, but for now, Goku's line really does it I guess. Fucking shit.

 

[Void]

Who unleashed Kenshi? What have you wrought upon us?

 

[p123]

Haha, I like the chaos.

 

[ahill1]

But Kenshi, Goku saying it will be their end if Ginyu possess his body might only mean Vegeta > 90k, no? Since Goku knows Ginyu couldn't use the Kaioken. He might only be considering their base powers.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I always took that to mean whatever level Vegeta was at would be enough to stomp Gohan and Krillin. Goku was a non factor at that point.

 

[Papasmurf]

 

[ahill1]

Kenshi, one last question: why do you think Ginyu only conceived the 180k as Goku's regular battle power? Goku said "Kaioken" when fighting him and multiplied his power for ~2x the estimations he has made, not to mean Goku stating Ginyu wouldn't be able to use the Kaioken against him. Don't you think he'd be already factoring the Kaioken as a technique?

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Not Kenshi, but Goku did say he was going to show Ginyu his full-power. Ginyu probably didn't care about the specifics.

 

[Papasmurf]

Yeah, Ginyu doesn't know what the f a Kaioken is. He thinks he can draw out 180k+ and Goku begs to differ, as he also failed to control Ginyu's power.

This debate is tiresome but that's one of the reasons why I have Vegeta at like 50% of his vs. Freeza powa when he swiftly kills Jheese.

 

[p123]

EV, I've always looked at it the same as you. I've always took it to mean that Goku/Ginyu's body were incapacitated and Vegeta was clearly >> Gohan/Krillen so that's why he would have won.

I'd even go so far as to say that is actually the author's true intentions in this segment.

However, logically speaking, Kenshi's point is hard to argue against. Even though I doubt it's the intention of the author, isn't it logic that rules the day irregardless?