Vegito and Gogeta

[Diamond Ryan]

Something that might be of note is that Piccolo calls the boys the world's last hope before he even sees their full power.

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

 

[kriss-]

Piccolo calling them their last hope is a reference towards their potential. He knows half blooded Saiyans are prodigies. This is not to be mistaken as him saying they're more powerful then he is.

In their power-burst scene, Piccolo was impressed, Goku was not. Piccolo was pushed back, but Goku was not. We all know Piccolo is stronger then Goku's Base form, so it's illogical for you to try and use that scan as evidence of the boys being superior to Piccolo. We already have evidence that ascertains the opposite.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Base Goku has nothing to do with it because he was expecting power around that level. Piccolo literally looks the same as he did when Cell Games Goku blew him back with his aura. Piccolo is just weaker than the kids.

 

[kriss-]

Goku didn't know what to expect, that's why he asked for it.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

His reaction to their full-power tells us it was expected. The only one who got blown away by the aura was Piccolo, implying he wasn't expecting that amount of power.

 

[kriss-]

If you wish, you can take it that way, but we have other supporting evidence that implies the opposite so I'll stick with that.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That implies Piccolo>Kids? Just give me one example.

 

[kriss-]

What implies the opposite?

 

[Diamond Ryan]

I think that if Toriyama didn't want to imply to us that the kids were above or at least around Piccolo's level, he wouldn't have drawn Piccolo being shocked at their power. There is nothing really saying that he was expecting their power to be low because they're kids.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The fact that the kids aren't far from Gohan, who believes he'll be outstripped soon. The Daizenshuu says Goten is about as strong as Gohan, but we'll just say that he's not much weaker.

Super Saiyan Goten is shown sparring with a powered-up Super Saiyan Gohan, giving him a shit load of trouble.

Piccolo being blown away by aura of the Super Saiyan Kids closely resembles how he looked when Full-Power Super Saiyan Goku blew him back in the Cell Games. That implies the Chi alone is greater than Piccolo's.

The only thing shown in the Boo saga with certainty is Piccolo>Base Kids because Boo reverted to Piccolo Boo.

 

[kriss-]

The boys were completely unable to physically overwhelm Android 18 due to the suit, but they were significantly more powerful with Chi attacks -which is essentially another way of telling us how they stack up to her. They are probably much more powerful then her as Super Saiyans, but not quite to the degree as Semi-Perfect Cell was implied to be.

Piccolo's reaction to their power-burst seems reminiscent of Vegeta's reaction to Goku's battle power of 8,000. Goku is definitely not stronger then Vegeta, but it is surprising all the same. Piccolo was already implied as being greater then either Goten or Trunks from Kuririn -and according to implications at the world martial arts tournament, he has a pretty good idea of where they stack up in comparison to himself.

Sparring holds no weight in the face of an actual fight. Goten was able to spar with Chi-Chi, so it doesn't necessarily mean anything. Besides, in one situation, Vegeta was taken off-guard from a battle power that he did not expect, in the other, Goten is completely astounded by Gohan's power. Sparring is sparring, take it for what it is.

That's my opinion, take it or leave it. I don't really give a shit, because I'm not getting drawn into a 20 page debate.

 

[Tapion]

The Daizenshuu also states that Base Kids ~ Eighteen, doesn't it?
Another piece of evidence that shouldn't be ignored.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

We've been over this dozens of times. They cannot coordinate themselves in such a shitty costume. Goten can't see and has to be told to kick #18 by Trunks, who also can't move well. How much power they have simply doesn't change the hindrance of Mighty Mask. I don't see how or why this can be used to place a certain threshold on their power.

You've always been a guy that's big on what the artwork shows:

Cell Games Goku reaction:

Super Saiyan Kids reaction:

Neither of those are comparable to Vegeta's reaction to 8k Goku. Piccolo was only implied to be weaker than Kaioshin. How he compares to others is never elaborated on. The reactions are mirrors of each other; speech bubble and all.

The whole point of sparring was to not only help Goten improve, but to also get himself back into shape for the tournament. If Goten was a shitty sparring partner, he wouldn't have gotten anything out of it. You're citing Chi-Chi even though we don't know if they actually sparred or how she trained with Goten. It's a complete unknown. She could've just taught Goten the basics of fighting, while he sparred with Trunks on a regular. Fact of the matter is Gohan had his aura up and was having trouble just defending against Goten's attacks. You can say it means nothing, but Semi-Cell isn't going to push Gohan at any point because he's simply too weak to do it.

 

[Tapion]

As i said above, the Daizenshuu 7 says that the kids can demonstrate strength on par with Eighteen when they aren't transformed, which is a good piece of evidence to add Evil Vegeta.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I agree. That is a good piece of evidence.