Vegito1089 goku black Pls

[KyuubiAhri]

what do you think of those?

 

[Pocket-God]

Who?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Who?

Some Youtube pleb who makes (poorly thought out) battle power lists.

 

[Pocket-God]

Oh I don't pay any attention to youtube dbz people lol

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Yeah, neither do I. I used to watch a few of his videos years ago, though they contain your typical casual DB fan misjudgements like 100% Freeza > post-absorption #20/19, post-Freeza Arc Tenshithands > Kuririn or Rild > Boo talking about Pure Boo. Not bad stuff if he weren't so bothered about DB power debates, but poor when his entire channel is dedicated to such.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

This reminds me of my first days doing BPs where i'd copy pretty much everything from Vegito1089/SethTheProgrammer and put on my own list

The only ones who are worth it watching are Drandosk and Sif90 because they do really kewl Vs videos.

 

[freezamite]

Yeah, neither do I. I used to watch a few of his videos years ago, though they contain your typical casual DB fan misjudgements like 100% Freeza > post-absorption #20/19, post-Freeza Arc Tenshithands > Kuririn or Rild > Boo talking about Pure Boo. Not bad stuff if he weren't so bothered about DB power debates, but poor when his entire channel is dedicated to such.

100% Freezer > post-absoption 19/20 is something I would undoubtedly say and I'm not considering myself a casual by any means...

 

[Pocket-God]

Tenshithands > Kuririn is legit tho

 

[Captain Cadaver]

100% Freezer > post-absoption 19/20 is something I would undoubtedly say and I'm not considering myself a casual by any means...

I'm talking about the version of him seen on Namek, not the hypothetical full power, MSSJ tier version you preach of.

 

[freezamite]

I'm talking about the version of him seen on Namek, not the hypothetical full power, MSSJ tier version you preach of.

Even then I wouldn't put 19 and 20 (even post-absorption) above him. I mean, that injured Freezer managed to fight SSJ Goku at his same level for a a few minutes, and N20 couldn't even start to fight with Piccolo, who was as strong as Trunks at best. And I don't think N19 could reach a PL that could surpass N20 (Guero made him weak so it would be easy to control, so he probably had a cap below Guero's own maximum PL).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Even then I wouldn't put 19 and 20 (even post-absorption) above him. I mean, that injured Freezer managed to fight SSJ Goku at his same level for a a few minutes, and N20 couldn't even start to fight with Piccolo, who was as strong as Trunks at best. And I don't think N19 could reach a PL that could surpass N20 (Guero made him weak so it would be easy to control, so he probably had a cap below Guero's own maximum PL).

An SSJ Trunks far stronger than the one who beat Mecha Freeza. #19 was also able to fight against a far stronger version of SSJ Goku than Freeza beat, albeit poorly, and I highly doubt the Ki he took from Vegeta would lower him down to a level below Freeza, whereas everyone was in agreement this drained Vegeta would lose to Gero.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Tenshithands > Kuririn is legit tho

 

[freezamite]

Even then I wouldn't put 19 and 20 (even post-absorption) above him. I mean, that injured Freezer managed to fight SSJ Goku at his same level for a a few minutes, and N20 couldn't even start to fight with Piccolo, who was as strong as Trunks at best. And I don't think N19 could reach a PL that could surpass N20 (Guero made him weak so it would be easy to control, so he probably had a cap below Guero's own maximum PL).

An SSJ Trunks far stronger than the one who beat Mecha Freeza. #19 was also able to fight against a far stronger version of SSJ Goku than Freeza beat, albeit poorly, and I highly doubt the Ki he took from Vegeta would lower him down to a level below Freeza, whereas everyone was in agreement this drained Vegeta would lose to Gero.

Why do you think SSJ Trunks was far stronger now than when he fought Mecha? Progress as a SSJ is much, much more limited than it was in the base state until Goku discovered how to properly train it.
Regarding Goku, his power never reached the PL of a SSJ. Even when he was trouncing N19, Piccolo said his power was far too low for it to be the power of a SSJ, in other words, Piccolo had never seen a SSJ as weak as Goku while fighting N19 and he knew how strong a SSJ was because he trained the whole 3 years with Goku.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Even then I wouldn't put 19 and 20 (even post-absorption) above him. I mean, that injured Freezer managed to fight SSJ Goku at his same level for a a few minutes, and N20 couldn't even start to fight with Piccolo, who was as strong as Trunks at best. And I don't think N19 could reach a PL that could surpass N20 (Guero made him weak so it would be easy to control, so he probably had a cap below Guero's own maximum PL).

An SSJ Trunks far stronger than the one who beat Mecha Freeza. #19 was also able to fight against a far stronger version of SSJ Goku than Freeza beat, albeit poorly, and I highly doubt the Ki he took from Vegeta would lower him down to a level below Freeza, whereas everyone was in agreement this drained Vegeta would lose to Gero.

Why do you think SSJ Trunks was far stronger now than when he fought Mecha? Progress as a SSJ is much, much more limited than it was in the base state until Goku discovered how to properly train it.
Regarding Goku, his power never reached the PL of a SSJ. Even when he was trouncing N19, Piccolo said his power was far too low for it to be the power of a SSJ, in other words, Piccolo had never seen a SSJ as weak as Goku while fighting N19 and he knew how strong a SSJ was because he trained the whole 3 years with Goku.

Tien sensed SSj post yardrat goku and he feels like sick goku is in a whole different dimension

 

[freezamite]

Tien sensed SSj post yardrat goku and he feels like sick goku is in a whole different dimension

That's simply not true. Tien is amazed at sick SSJ Goku simply because it's still a huge power from his perspective, but Piccolo's comment on Goku's strength (he clearly states that Goku's power is much, much lower than what a SSJ should have. And he doesn't say SSJ Goku, he says "a SSJ") leaves no doubt: sick SSJ Goku never had a power comparable to what one should expect from a SSJ (or at least, from the SSJs seen at that point in the series).

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Why do you think SSJ Trunks was far stronger now than when he fought Mecha?

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku?…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Piccolo stated he was confident in his strength when talking to Goku before arriving at the island, despite knowing Trunks was no match for the opponents they were going to face. In the anime, it's even more explicit with him outright stating his strength should be enough, and Kuririn's statement also makes it apparent Piccolo is at bare minimum on a similar level to the SSJs.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Progress as a SSJ is much, much more limited than it was in the base state until Goku discovered how to properly train it.

The earliest known version of SSJ Trunks was weaker than Base Future Gohan, so that's obviously false.

Regarding Goku, his power never reached the PL of a SSJ. Even when he was trouncing N19, Piccolo said his power was far too low for it to be the power of a SSJ, in other words, Piccolo had never seen a SSJ as weak as Goku while fighting N19 and he knew how strong a SSJ was because he trained the whole 3 years with Goku.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Here, Piccolo blatantly states Goku was fighting at near enough his full power, not at a far lower level. Now, you can argue that he was referring to Goku's effort and limits being at their peak, or that his movements were what was poor. Considering Tenshinhan's attitude towards the Super Saiyan power in general though, despite having already seen what both Trunks and Goku were capable of 3 years prior, the latter makes far more sense without chalking it up to Ten being an amnesiac.

That's simply not true. Tien is amazed at sick SSJ Goku simply because it's still a huge power from his perspective, but Piccolo's comment on Goku's strength (he clearly states that Goku's power is much, much lower than what a SSJ should have. And he doesn't say SSJ Goku, he says "a SSJ") leaves no doubt: sick SSJ Goku never had a power comparable to what one should expect from a SSJ (or at least, from the SSJs seen at that point in the series).

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Ten's wording of the statement implies one of two things.

1. He completely forgot about seeing both Goku and Trunks three years ago.
2. Goku's power at this point eclipses what he was three years ago.

Decide which route fits better, but from an in-universe perspective, the answer's obvious.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

it seems my assistance here isn't needed.Even my minion ^_^ Captain Cadaver can take care of you.If you can't beat us what makes you think you can even light a candle to evil vegeta?

 

[freezamite]

Chapter 337 (DBZ 143), P1.3-4, P2.1
Piccolo: “How about it, Son Goku?…Frankly, do you think we can win against this enemy…”
Goku: “There’s no way I could know that without even seeing them. I’ll answer once I give it a try.”
Piccolo: “You’re pretty carefree…It’s not like I lack confidence…However, I can’t clear this uneasy premonition from my mind…”

Piccolo stated he was confident in his strength when talking to Goku before arriving at the island, despite knowing Trunks was no match for the opponents they were going to face. In the anime, it's even more explicit with him outright stating his strength should be enough, and Kuririn's statement also makes it apparent Piccolo is at bare minimum on a similar level to the SSJs.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

Regardless of where you place #19 and #20, Piccolo should obviously be above SSJ Trunks (vs Mecha Freeza) at the very least based on this, and Trunks should therefore be significantly above his self from 3 years ago.
Not only that, but there's also a clear difference in how Trunks describes #17 and #18 from his first visit to the main timeline and his return 3 years later.

I think you're drawing too many conclusions from those sentences. For example, I have Piccolo at SSJ Trunks level of power (and SSJ Trunks at the practically the same PL as the Mecha/Cold encounter, which is the same PL of SSJ Namek Goku btw) and all those sentences fit the bill perfectly.

We know Goku, before getting ill, powered up enough for Piccolo to put it very close to SSJ Vegeta (who was considerably above SSJ Trunks in DB terms of deciding a fight -that is, a good 10-20% over him-).
Furthermore, they still didn't know about the androids' unlimited energy and they had the advantage in numbers (including Gohan, that at that point I'm sure could be at Namek Vegeta PL when he was killed by Freezer), so he had reasons to have hopes (not that he is sure they're going to win precisely).

And Krilin's sentence... where do you think it implies Piccolo is above SSJ Yadrat Trunks? Krilin is amazed that Piccolo's power is so huge despite him not being a SSJ, it doesn't mean he has to be higher than a SSJ, in fact, he could still be a tad lower and the sentence would still be valid as long as his power remained in the range of what could allow for a very close fight.

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Barely managing to escape =/= Fighting fairly well. Trunks having increased his power within that time and having another conflict with the pair during it is the only way to not make his words contradictory.

I think you're taking Trunk's first sentence too literally, ignoring the context in which it was said.
Firstly, there's also this other quote:
Chapter: 348 (page 6)
Trunks: "I... I can become a Super Saiyan, as well... but I was in no way a match for the two of them... their strength is unimaginable..."
https://mangarock.com/manga/mrs-serie-63595/chapter/mrs-chapter-63943

So, if we take everything Trunks says in a literal way that would mean that his power up didn't take place in the time he spent in the future, but in the time they were looking for Guero's lab (which is not possible since Trunks does nothing in that time that could increase his strength at all).

My take on the situation is a bit different. Characters in DB are well realised, and what they say it's always in the context of what they know and what they want to achieve. I mean, Goku lied about not being able to defeat Majin Bu as a SSJ3 just because he wanted the kids to grow stronger, even when the whole universe was at risk (who could have guessed that Goku could be such.

To make sense of those contradictory sentences (and no power up can justify it, since Trunks insist on the androids' superiority after coming back from the future as well) one has to understand Trunks intentions and aim.

Trunks wanted Goku and the other z-warriors to be as prepared as possible for the fight with the androids. So exaggerating their strength helped that objective. His warning would had had much less impact if he said "Hey Goku, I can already fight them fairly well by myself, so if you fight with your friends you'll have a lot of chances to win". So from his point of view, that's what makes most sense.

In chapter 348, Trunks wanted to avoid the fight with the androids until Goku was healed. So of course him saying "I could do nothing against them even as a SSJ" would help to convince the other z-warriors to wait. In the end, they still ended attacking the androids, but it's not difficult to imagine why would Trunks say this if he wanted them to wait for Goku.

Only after lying had no further purpose he told the truth. The androids were strong, true, but they weren't that incredible. That piece of information is only given when giving it isn't against Trunks' best interests anymore.

The only way to make sense of those sentences is to understand Trunks as a character, on the other hand, if we take them literally then Trunks didn't power up in the future, but in the 20 minutes he spent searching Guero's lab and chasing Vegeta.

The earliest known version of SSJ Trunks was weaker than Base Future Gohan, so that's obviously false.

Age is a factor in DB as well when you're at your limits. The reason Trunks was a bit stronger than Goten was that he was 8 while Goten was still just 7.
Trunks had what, 13-14 years at that time, with much less experience in Ki mastering than Gohan or Goku (which is crucial to the power of the SSJ)?
17 years old Trunks, having been able to transform for years, was at the same level than SSJ Goku with only a few months of experience as a SSJ (much less if you discount the time he spent healing himself and travelling through space), and we know for a fact that Trunks base state was comparable to Gohan's, which mean it was much above Goku's base state.

Furthermore, I'm not saying the SSJ can't improve, I'm saying that regular training doesn't work with it very well. The way to train the SSJ is to surpass it's violent emotions and have as much control over it's ki as possible, and Trunks didn't know this until post-RoSAT Goku/Gohan did it, so he obviously couldn't do it in the time he spent in the future. His improvement there should be marginal, much less than the improvement Goku had during the 3 years gap until the androids appeared in terms of improving his mastering of the ki plus whatever strength he could still gain from growing in age (though how much is not clear, we don't know how much time Bulma needed to recharge the time travel machine), and Goku didn't manage to improve substantially either (he increased his strength a 10-15% at best, because he still was below SSJ Vegeta).

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Here, Piccolo blatantly states Goku was fighting at near enough his full power, not at a far lower level. Now, you can argue that he was referring to Goku's effort and limits being at their peak, or that his movements were what was poor. Considering Tenshinhan's attitude towards the Super Saiyan power in general though, despite having already seen what both Trunks and Goku were capable of 3 years prior, the latter makes far more sense without chalking it up to Ten being an amnesiac.

What Piccolo is saying is that Goku, despite fighting at full strength, didn't have a power comparable to the one that should be expected from a SSJ.
At that point Goku's illness was already affecting him (and from there onward it only got worse) but Piccolo doesn't know this, so he is surprised at Goku's low power despite the fact that he is fighting as hard as he can.

But the term "miserable condition" says it all. Goku's strength when he fought N19 and N20 was "miserable", and not only compared to Goku's previous achievements, but compared to what a SSJ should have.

Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P13.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what a ki! Amazing…! S-so this is Goku as a Super Saiyan…?!”
Piccolo: “…”

Ten's wording of the statement implies one of two things.

1. He completely forgot about seeing both Goku and Trunks three years ago.
2. Goku's power at this point eclipses what he was three years ago.

Decide which route fits better, but from an in-universe perspective, the answer's obvious.

Or you can have explanation 3, which is something that has happened a lot in the series, which is that Tens perception may have changed from before.
We know of two things that affect Ki perception (which, again, has nothing to do with the way scoutters evaluate the PL number):
The fighter's attitude.
The power of the one that's sensing the other ones in relation to the power being displayed.

We have a lot of examples of those two factors. For example, for the fighter's attitude, the fight vs Vegeta. We know that Vegeta in earth couldn't rise his Ki, yet we have a "power up" scene that still took Goku completely by surprise. That's because him going from a pacific stance to an aggressive one altered Goku's perception on his strength.
This one is also commented when Goku and Trunks went SSJ by the way:

Chapter 334, page 7:
Ten-Shin: A... super saiyan?
Yamcha: Wow... what a huge ki... and he's not even fighting yet.

The other factor, the difference in power between the one sensing and the powers he senses making him unable to fully grasp the power he's sensing, is easily seen in the fight vs Freezer.
Just when Freezer has powered up enough to utterly beat Goku to a pulp, Piccolo says this:
Chapter 312, page 5:
Gohan: D-Dad can still beat him, right?
Piccolo: There's no way to know for certain... their powers are far beyond our comprehension, now.

That was in front of KKx20 like 50% Freezer vs SSJ Goku like KKx10 Goku, and Namek Piccolo nonetheless.

So imagine Ten Shin Han, that never approached Piccolo's power, in front of that (two SSJs, in other words, two nearly namek KKx10 Goku's). It's only logical that in front of such powers, and with Goku's violent attitude, he couldn't be anything less than surprised.
That doesn't mean that he was in a position to compare them, in fact, that's what Piccolo is saying (just with good words): Shut up Ten, you can't even start to comprehend how fabulous a SSJ can be.

 

[SIAD]

In any case, I prefer to take literally the words of Future Trunks, before calling him a liar.

If the power of the Base state of a Saiyan increases, the same happens with its levels of SSJ. It is very difficult to understand that?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not to mention it's shown he spend 3 days in a hospital after being pummeled by the twins on Trunks's special chapter. Can't post the scan tho.