Vegito1089 goku black Pls

[Super Neko Majin Z]

Getting back on topic, just like Saiyaman I remember him from back when I was a scrub. Hopefully he's improved since then; if not, I guess he makes a good gateway.

I also remember SethTheProgrammer. All he did was fill my head with dumbassery that took months to fix.

 

[freezamite]

The theme is simple. The power of Gero + the energies of Piccolo (Suppressed) + Gohan + Krillin + Tenshinhan would be enough to give Vegeta SSJ some trouble (Androids).

It is assumed that Vegeta Base (Androids)> Goku Base (Androids)> Piccolo (Suppressed) >> Gohan (Androids)> Krillin (Androids)> Tenshinhan (Androids).

This means that even Humans are not insignificant compared to the power of Namek's Freezer.

Look, I see what you're trying to do here, but seriously, how can a supposed power-up for Future Trunks not have any effect when he had already travelled to the past for a second time, but then suddenly activate during that travel to the past?
Or he powered up during those 3 years, which means that he was already powered up when he came to the past for a second time, or the power up during those 3 years he spent on the future wasn't the reason Trunks changed his stance on the subject.

Again, I'm trying to be nice here. What I'm saying is not against logic, and in fact, I think that your delayed power up theory is much, much more against common sense than my explanation.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

1. Vegeta had a PL comparable to 18, but he didn't fight her "fairly well". He was trashed in fact.
2. SSB Goku fought Jiren "fairly well"? Sorry but no.
3. When Trunks said what he said, he said it in comparison to the fight with the present androids. In other words, Trunks had a better fight against both androids in the future than anything that happened in the present.

1. Nope. Piccolo is stated to far surpass Vegeta's SSJ power and Piccolo is stated to rival 18 in power. Cell was stronger than SSJ Vegeta and he wasn't close to the Androids.

2. Yes Goku fought Jiren fairly well but is nothing to him. It's subjective. Trunks' performance in the History of Trunks special is what Trunks himself defines as "fairly well". It looked "fairly well" to me, though his powerlessness was apparent. Doesn't matter if you don't want to accept it.

3. And? That has nothing to do with anything I said. Present Androids>Future Androids>SSJ Trunks in terms of power.

Trunks saying that he could fight the Future Androids fairly well does nothing whatsoever to contradict him saying that they're way too strong for him nor does it hint at any sort of improvement. Nada. It's a pathetic reach, nothing more.

 

[SIAD]

The theme is simple. The power of Gero + the energies of Piccolo (Suppressed) + Gohan + Krillin + Tenshinhan would be enough to give Vegeta SSJ some trouble (Androids).

It is assumed that Vegeta Base (Androids)> Goku Base (Androids)> Piccolo (Suppressed) >> Gohan (Androids)> Krillin (Androids)> Tenshinhan (Androids).

This means that even Humans are not insignificant compared to the power of Namek's Freezer.

Look, I see what you're trying to do here, but seriously, how can a supposed power-up for Future Trunks not have any effect when he had already travelled to the past for a second time, but then suddenly activate during that travel to the past?
Or he powered up during those 3 years, which means that he was already powered up when he came to the past for a second time, or the power up during those 3 years he spent on the future wasn't the reason Trunks changed his stance on the subject.

Again, I'm trying to be nice here. What I'm saying is not against logic, and in fact, I think that your delayed power up theory is much, much more against common sense than my explanation.

Apart from the fact that Future Trunks went from calling scary to be able to rival one of them, we must not forget that the gap between Goku SSJ on Future Trunks SSJ decreased in those 3 years and we know that Goku trained during those 3 years.

  I think the reason is simple, Future Trunks within those years I train, since there were many reasons for him to train. Why would he keep his power, if his idea was that with the help of the Z Warriors they could defeat the Androids?

 

[freezamite]

1. Nope. Piccolo is stated to far surpass Vegeta's SSJ power and Piccolo is stated to rival 18 in power. Cell was stronger than SSJ Vegeta and he wasn't close to the Androids.

Cell stronger than SSJ Vegeta? I don't think so, nope, not at all.
Furthermore, you're contradicting direct statements about a subject (there's no doubt 18 was serious against Vegeta because she tells us she is and 17 confirms it again, and that he managed to fight her at her level for an instant -every Z-warrior comments on it-) with your own extrapolations on statements that doesn't even address the subject.
Another example: Kami-Piccolo surpassed 17 in PL (that's why the fight lasted so long), who at the same time surpassed 18. So the difference between him and SSJ Vegeta could be considerable by DB standards, and him still being at 18 levels of powers only because when 16 says what he says he is taking into account the android's unlimited strength.

So even if a N18 vs Piccolo could be more one-sided at the beginning in favour of Piccolo, if Piccolo fails to deal fatal damage to the android the android will surpass him eventually, which is something that doesn't apply to SSJ.

2. Yes Goku fought Jiren fairly well but is nothing to him. It's subjective. Trunks' performance in the History of Trunks special is what Trunks himself defines as "fairly well". It looked "fairly well" to me, though his powerlessness was apparent. Doesn't matter if you don't want to accept it.

Yes, is subjective, but what you can be sure of is that Trunks didn't mean that his fight against the future Androids went like the one witht the present one, and in that fight Vegeta managed to match serious N18 in strength.

So if Trunks did a much better job against the future androids only by himself, it's obvious that he surpassed them in strength, just not enough to kill them before losing his advantage in pure strength.

3. And? That has nothing to do with anything I said. Present Androids>Future Androids>SSJ Trunks in terms of power.

Trunks saying that he could fight the Future Androids fairly well does nothing whatsoever to contradict him saying that they're way too strong for him nor does it hint at any sort of improvement. Nada. It's a pathetic reach, nothing more.

Look, I wouldn't be that con-descendant if I were you, because your "logic" is full of flaws and most important, you're trying to avoid the direct statements from the manga that doesn't interest you.
Trunks saying he could fight the future androids fairly well OF COURSE that it contradicts statements like "even as a SSJ I was powerless against them" or "I was in no way able to do anything against them".

I mean, if you can't see the difference, okay, but the difference it's there and the meaning of those sentences contradictory.

Apart from the fact that Future Trunks went from calling scary to be able to rival one of them, we must not forget that the gap between Goku SSJ on Future Trunks SSJ decreased in those 3 years and we know that Goku trained during those 3 years.

But what I'm telling you is precisely that Trunks, after coming from the future (chapter 348) said he could do NOTHING against the androids.

In other words: Trunks at chapter 348 and AFTER coming back from the future, still said he was no match for the androids. So you can't say he changed his stance during that time, because that is not true. We have Trunks, with the exact same stance, AFTER his 2nd time travel.

Please can you justify this with your 3 years improvement explanation (and I'm not saying Trunks couldn't improve at all, I'm saying that if that improvement was there it was fairly small, and that it didn't affect his stance on the subject).

And where is it said that Trunks closed his gap with SSJ Goku? I think SSJ Trunks was implied to be as strong as Yadrat Goku, so if I'm not missing anything I don't see how you can reach that conclusion.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

1. Nope. Piccolo is stated to far surpass Vegeta's SSJ power and Piccolo is stated to rival 18 in power. Cell was stronger than SSJ Vegeta and he wasn't close to the Androids.

Cell stronger than SSJ Vegeta? I don't think so, nope, not at all.
Furthermore, you're contradicting direct statements about a subject (there's no doubt 18 was serious against Vegeta because she tells us she is and 17 confirms it again, and that he managed to fight her at her level for an instant -every Z-warrior comments on it-) with your own extrapolations on statements that doesn't even address the subject.
Another example: Kami-Piccolo surpassed 17 in PL (that's why the fight lasted so long), who at the same time surpassed 18. So the difference between him and SSJ Vegeta could be considerable by DB standards, and him still being at 18 levels of powers only because when 16 says what he says he is taking into account the android's unlimited strength.

So even if a N18 vs Piccolo could be more one-sided at the beginning in favour of Piccolo, if Piccolo fails to deal fatal damage to the android the android will surpass him eventually, which is something that doesn't apply to SSJ.

2. Yes Goku fought Jiren fairly well but is nothing to him. It's subjective. Trunks' performance in the History of Trunks special is what Trunks himself defines as "fairly well". It looked "fairly well" to me, though his powerlessness was apparent. Doesn't matter if you don't want to accept it.

Yes, is subjective, but what you can be sure of is that Trunks didn't mean that his fight against the future Androids went like the one witht the present one, and in that fight Vegeta managed to match serious N18 in strength.

So if Trunks did a much better job against the future androids only by himself, it's obvious that he surpassed them in strength, just not enough to kill them before losing his advantage in pure strength.

3. And? That has nothing to do with anything I said. Present Androids>Future Androids>SSJ Trunks in terms of power.

Trunks saying that he could fight the Future Androids fairly well does nothing whatsoever to contradict him saying that they're way too strong for him nor does it hint at any sort of improvement. Nada. It's a pathetic reach, nothing more.

Look, I wouldn't be that con-descendant if I were you, because your "logic" is full of flaws and most important, you're trying to avoid the direct statements from the manga that doesn't interest you.
Trunks saying he could fight the future androids fairly well OF COURSE that it contradicts statements like "even as a SSJ I was powerless against them" or "I was in no way able to do anything against them".

I mean, if you can't see the difference, okay, but the difference it's there and the meaning of those sentences contradictory.

Apart from the fact that Future Trunks went from calling scary to be able to rival one of them, we must not forget that the gap between Goku SSJ on Future Trunks SSJ decreased in those 3 years and we know that Goku trained during those 3 years.

But what I'm telling you is precisely that Trunks, after coming from the future (chapter 348) said he could do NOTHING against the androids.

In other words: Trunks at chapter 348 and AFTER coming back from the future, still said he was no match for the androids. So you can't say he changed his stance during that time, because that is not true. We have Trunks, with the exact same stance, AFTER his 2nd time travel.

Please can you justify this with your 3 years improvement explanation (and I'm not saying Trunks couldn't improve at all, I'm saying that if that improvement was there it was fairly small, and that it didn't affect his stance on the subject).

And where is it said that Trunks closed his gap with SSJ Goku? I think SSJ Trunks was implied to be as strong as Yadrat Goku, so if I'm not missing anything I don't see how you can reach that conclusion.

Goku said that cell is stronger than him,and if hes stronger than goku,hes also stronger than vegeta

 

[freezamite]

Goku said that cell is stronger than him,and if hes stronger than goku,hes also stronger than vegeta

No, he isn't.
Firstly, that was just after he recovered from the illness. At some point in the 3 year gap, Goku was close to SSJ Vegeta (still a bit below him, though), that doesn't mean that Goku just after recovering from the illness was at 100% of his strength.
Furthermore, it's Goku we are speaking of. Goku wanted to fight with the strongest possible opponents, so I'm not even sure you can take what he said there at face value knowing that pursuing imperfect Cell and killing him before he it could absorb the androids went against his best interests.

 

[SIAD]

Well, although you think that Goku SSJ (Yadart) = Future Trunks SSJ (Debut), it can not be denied that Piccolo (Androids) trusted to fight perfectly against the Androids, despite knowing that they were much stronger than Future Trunks SSJ (First Appearance ).

Tenshinhan stated that Vegeta SSJ (Androids), Goku SSJ (Androids) and Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) are almost at the same level, while these 3 are comfortably stronger than Piccolo (Androids).

The chain is this: Vegeta SSJ (Androids)> Goku SSJ (Androids)> Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) >> Piccolo (Androids)> Goku SSJ (Semi Sick) >> Goku SSJ (Yadart)> Future Trunks SSJ (Debut) .

By the way Tenshinhan was impressed by the power of Goku SSJ (Semi Sick), despite having seen the power of Goku SSJ (Yadart). That Piccolo later said that that power that Goku was using was not at all comparable to his true power as Super Saiyan, he only says that Goku SSJ (Androids) >>> Goku SSJ (Semi Sick), since Piccolo knew all the Goku power, since he was training with him for 3 years and I do not think Piccolo has become so strong training alone with Goku Base.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

not trying to help Freezasmite's case but toriyama seems to have forgotten that tenshinhan sensed ssj yardrat goku

 

[freezamite]

Well, although you think that Goku SSJ (Yadart) = Future Trunks SSJ (Debut), it can not be denied that Piccolo (Androids) trusted to fight perfectly against the Androids, despite knowing that they were much stronger than Future Trunks SSJ (First Appearance ).

Tenshinhan stated that Vegeta SSJ (Androids), Goku SSJ (Androids) and Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) are almost at the same level, while these 3 are comfortably stronger than Piccolo (Androids).

The chain is this: Vegeta SSJ (Androids)> Goku SSJ (Androids)> Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) >> Piccolo (Androids)> Goku SSJ (Semi Sick) >> Goku SSJ (Yadart)> Future Trunks SSJ (Debut) .

By the way Tenshinhan was impressed by the power of Goku SSJ (Semi Sick), despite having seen the power of Goku SSJ (Yadart). That Piccolo later said that that power that Goku was using was not at all comparable to his true power as Super Saiyan, he only says that Goku SSJ (Androids) >>> Goku SSJ (Semi Sick), since Piccolo knew all the Goku power, since he was training with him for 3 years and I do not think Piccolo has become so strong training alone with Goku Base.

I already adressed that Tenshinhan misconception dozens of times with solid proofs from the manga. Ten sensed SSJ Yadrat Goku, but Ten wasn't even close enough to be able to comprehend how powerful he was.
Heck, if Piccolo+Nail couldn't even tell how superior 50% Freezer was compared to KKx10 Goku because their powers were too big, how are you expecting TenShinHan to do it?
That's why Piccolo is there and corrects him saying that Goku had much, much less power than what should be expected from a SSJ.

So its:
SSJ Vegeta >= SSJ Goku > SSJ Trunks/Piccolo/SSJ Yadrat >>> SSJ Sick (or semi-sick) Goku.

When TenShinHan says what he says, Goku is already much, much below than what should be expected from a SSJ. In fact, Goku never reached the power that should be expected from a SSJ in that fight, his illness was already affecting him when the fight started.

 

[SIAD]

But even so Piccolo (Androids) thought that he could have an opportunity against the Androids despite knowing that individually they were much superior to Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer) and also Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) is more powerful than Piccolo (Androids).

 

[freezamite]

But even so Piccolo (Androids) thought that he could have an opportunity against the Androids despite knowing that individually they were much superior to Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer) and also Future Trunks SSJ (Androids) is more powerful than Piccolo (Androids).

Piccolo didn't think HE had an opportunity, he thought THEY had it.
Piccolo knew that Future Trunks was able to fight those androids and survive all by himself (even if Trunks still described them as too strong).
So if Future Trunks managed to survive, and this time there were 2 FT SSJ like fighters (Goku and Piccolo himself, with Goku being a bit higher) + all the backup + senzu beans I think it's reasonable for Piccolo to think they had an opportunity to win.

By the way, why do you think it was lower than FT? He beat A20 as if he was nothing, and we know that Guero had 75-80% the strength of SSJ Vegeta. There's not much margin between being able to beat him as if he was nothing and still be considerably below SSJ Vegeta like SSJ Trunks was.

 

[SIAD]

But even so, Piccolo and Vegeta had doubts that the Androids # 19 and # 20 were as powerful as Future Trunks described them. That makes me think that at least Android 20 (Post) rivals Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer).

I have Future Trunks SSJ (Android)> / >> Piccolo (Android) because Tenshinhan grouped the 3 SSJs as if they were in the same league.

 

[freezamite]

But even so, Piccolo and Vegeta had doubts that the Androids # 19 and # 20 were as powerful as Future Trunks described them. That makes me think that at least Android 20 (Post) rivals Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer).

I have Future Trunks SSJ (Android)> / >> Piccolo (Android) because Tenshinhan grouped the 3 SSJs as if they were in the same league.

That doubt has its basis. Firstly, they really weren't as strong as Trunks described them, but you also have to think Piccolo and Vegeta PLs increased dramatically in those 3 years (Vegeta thanks to the SSJ transformation, Piccolo because he still was far from his natural limits) which of course altered their perception on the power Trunks may have had 3 years back.
Sensing Kis is not like watching at a scoutter, you have no numbers, only relative (to you) approximations that are influenced by other factors (like aggresivity and such) that wouldn't affect a scoutter.
Those two only felt the power of a SSJ once, 3 years prior to those events, and while they had much less strength than they had when they said that, I don't think that's strange at all.

On the other hand, we have feats that demonstrate that Trunks was closer to Piccolo than to Vegeta.
Firstly, Piccolo's beating on A20 which we know had 75% the power of SSJ Vegeta at the very least (SSJ Vegeta had to put up an act to scare him and eat a senzu) puts him at the very least at 83% SSJ Vegeta.
And form the fight against N18, we see how the difference between Trunks and Vegeta was big (in DB terms, of course). A weakened Vegeta with a broken arm still managed to resist A18's attacks better than Trunks without a scratch. So I would say a good 15% of difference in power between SSJ Trunks and SSJ Vegeta is perfectly justified. As you can see, the difference between Piccolo and SSJ Trunks can't be big, a mere 2-3% in favour of Trunks at best.

Now, you have to have on mind that Ten's appreciations on the strength of a SSJ had already been dismissed as fanboyish at best when Piccolo had to address him. I think it was more due to the SSJs being the "new shit" (at least for him they still were) than an accurate appreciation on their true strength by him.

 

[SIAD]

But even though they felt the power of Future Trunks SSJ 3 years ago, it would make sense for them to remember the level of their power.

  As for Vegeta and Future Trunks, if not bad memory, Android # 18 was just playing with Vegeta and then started to fight more seriously. The Android # 17 gave a great surprise blow to future Trunks SSJ.

  I agree that the difference between Vegeta SSJ (Android) on Future Trunks SSJ (Android) was not anything small, but at least they were in the same league. I have Piccolo (Android) one step behind the 3 SSJ at that time.

 

[freezamite]

But even though they felt the power of Future Trunks SSJ 3 years ago, it would make sense for them to remember the level of their power.

But sensing one's ki is not like seeing their PL through a scoutter. When Vegeta and Piccolo felt Trunks's power 3 years ago, they were much, much weaker, so the power seemed much bigger. It's also affected by the fighter's attitude and other aspects, and when it's too big, it simply becomes immeasurable.

As for Vegeta and Future Trunks, if not bad memory, Android # 18 was just playing with Vegeta and then started to fight more seriously. The Android # 17 gave a great surprise blow to future Trunks SSJ.

18 fights Vegeta seriously and Vegeta still manages to match her strength. Trunks, on the other hand, never comes close to 18 (even his first attack does nothing to her).
But it's true that 17 took him by surprise, him being below broken arm SSJ Vegeta was a bit too forced for my tastes, I never considered that and it better explains the outcome of the fight, so thank you for that hint.

I agree that the difference between Vegeta SSJ (Android) on Future Trunks SSJ (Android) was not anything small, but at least they were in the same league. I have Piccolo (Android) one step behind the 3 SSJ at that time.

Mmmm the problem here is the feats. With Piccolo being well above 20... could you give them numbers? It doesn't have to be in PL units, just so I have a reference on your view (for example SSJ Vegeta 1, SSJ Trunks 0,9 or whatever scale you feel more comfortable with).

 

[SIAD]

But even if Vegeta and Piccolo are insignificant to future SSJ Trunks, they can still know how powerful he was.

  These numbers are very random:

100% Freezer (Namek) = 100

Goku SSJ (Namek) = 110

Mecha Freezer (50%) = 60
(100% Hypothetical) = 120

King Cold = 80

Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer) = 160

Goku SSJ (Yadart) = 192

Androids:

Yamcha = 25

Tenshinhan = 29

Krilin = 30

Gohan = 31

Piccolo (Heavy Clothing / Suppressed) = 36.8
(without Heavy Clothing / Suppressed) = 46
(Heavy Clothing) = 264.96
(FP) = 331.2

Future Trunks Base = 37
SSJ = 370

Goku Base = 38.4
SSJ = 384

Vegeta Base = 39
SSJ = 390

Android #20 (Post Attack of Vegeta SSJ) = 264
(Post Absorber Ki by Piccolo) = 291

What I do is decrease the multipliers of SSJ only in the Arc Android to be able to work well with the numbers, then when the Saiyajins leave the Rosat, their SSJ multiplier returns to be 50x their Base.

 

[KyuubiAhri]

Kid Trunks vs insignificant to ssj2 goku and yet he was able to tell that he is as strong as ssj2 majin vegeta

Krilling was insignificant to Ussj vegeta and semi cell and yet was able to tell that Ussj vegeta>>Semi cell
Krillin was able to tell that perfect cell is >>> Ussj Vegeta.

 

[freezamite]

But even if Vegeta and Piccolo are insignificant to future SSJ Trunks, they can still know how powerful he was.

These numbers are very random:

100% Freezer (Namek) = 100

Goku SSJ (Namek) = 110

Mecha Freezer (50%) = 60
(100% Hypothetical) = 120

King Cold = 80

Future Trunks SSJ (Vs Freezer) = 160

Goku SSJ (Yadart) = 192

Androids:

Yamcha = 25

Tenshinhan = 29

Krilin = 30

Gohan = 31

Piccolo (Heavy Clothing / Suppressed) = 36.8
(without Heavy Clothing / Suppressed) = 46
(Heavy Clothing) = 264.96
(FP) = 331.2

Future Trunks Base = 37
SSJ = 370

Goku Base = 38.4
SSJ = 384

Vegeta Base = 39
SSJ = 390

Android #20 (Post Attack of Vegeta SSJ) = 264
(Post Absorber Ki by Piccolo) = 291

What I do is decrease the multipliers of SSJ only in the Arc Android to be able to work well with the numbers, then when the Saiyajins leave the Rosat, their SSJ multiplier returns to be 50x their Base.

Sorry for not being able to answer until now.
Besides the Mecha part, where we will disagree (but it's not the point of this discussion) I see various things:
1. Android #20 at only 264, with Vegeta at 390, means that Android 19 absorbed at least 150 from Vegeta (since SSJ Vegeta was left with less energy than Android #20).
The increases for the SSJ are too big as well for my tastes. In the manga, when Vegeta's second training in the ROSAT proved to be useless, it was made clear that the way to improve the SSJ was to have better control of it's ki instead of just powering up.
Those increases are as if that limitation wasn't on place for the SSJ, as if they could be trained like the base state.

Kid Trunks vs insignificant to ssj2 goku and yet he was able to tell that he is as strong as ssj2 majin vegeta

Krilling was insignificant to Ussj vegeta and semi cell and yet was able to tell that Ussj vegeta>>Semi cell
Krillin was able to tell that perfect cell is >>> Ussj Vegeta.

Yes, that's a bit of a wild card (like the zenkays), though in the Krilin scenarios he has both energies in front of him to make a direct comparison.
The thing is that Ten was wrong not because I don't like him, but because Piccolo, which proved to be correct, contradicted him.
If Piccolo had said nothing, then Ten would've been right. But we have Piccolo with more knowledge than Ten contradicting him, so you can't take what Ten says (in that scene) at face value.