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supersaiyangodgogeta said:
I would like to see you try to fit that into the scale.
Was Beerus' power retconned throughout Dragon Ball Super?
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I would like to see you try to fit that into the scale.
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Wasn't it pretty much implied that Goku SSJB with a Kkx10 was still inferior to Beerus? Goku still labels Monaka as the strongest of the Universe and wants to see him facing Hit (an opponent who was just trading punches with him while he was using the SSJB Kkx10), and yet he should know Monaka is weaker than Beerus. In other words, Goku treats someone who was only the "strongest enemy Beerus has ever faced" as his superior, implying he still thinks even his Kkx10 Blue form is powerless against the Hakaioshin.
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supersaiyangodgogeta said:
And what, Goku SSJG got stronger during Goku's training in the RoSaT, Goku has a form way stronger than God [Blue], who still pales in comparison to CSSJB, who is just one-shot fodder for Beerus... you can't possibly fit that in the 6/10/15 scale, otherwise you'd be telling me this:
Beerus (10) >>> CSSJB >>> SSJB >>> SSJG [U6 Tournament] >> SSJG (6).
How can you even fit that under a 6/10 gap?
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ahill1 said:
Beerus also used 70% of his power against SSjinB Goku.
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Kaioken isn't treated anywhere in any official material as someones full power. It's just a technique that's stated to push someone beyond their limits.
Goku was stated throughout the show at points to be weaker than black and equal to freeza. Kaioken isn't factored into the equation.
As far as the gaps between ssjg, Ssb and cssb are concerned, Ssb doesn't have to be way stronger than god. Beerus described it as only being a mere power up from god. Toriyamas scale being true isn't contingent on whether or not you can personally make it fit. That's not a retcon.
I can fit the mangas events in toriyamas scale just fine.
Goku was stated throughout the show at points to be weaker than black and equal to freeza. Kaioken isn't factored into the equation.
As far as the gaps between ssjg, Ssb and cssb are concerned, Ssb doesn't have to be way stronger than god. Beerus described it as only being a mere power up from god. Toriyamas scale being true isn't contingent on whether or not you can personally make it fit. That's not a retcon.
Super Saiyan=[50xbase]
Super Saiyan 2=[2xSuper Saiyan]/[100xbase]
Super Saiyan 3=[4xSuper Saiyan 2]/[400xbase]
Quake of Fury=[1,000,000xbase]/[20,000xSuper Saiyan]
Super Saiyan God=[1,500,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[1,680,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Full power)=[1.45xSuper Saiyan God]/[2,175,000xbase]
Super Saiyan(Goku Black)=[1,700xbase]
Super Saiyan Rose=[1,930xbase]
Fusion multiplier[Merged Zamasu]=A+B(1.1)
Battle of Gods arc Super Saiyan God Goku: 60,000,000,000,000,000
Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 2,037,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 4,075,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 16,300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 68,460,000,000,000,000
Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 40,750,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 68,460,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black: 21,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 35,700,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black(Zenkai): 41,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 70,550,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 80,095,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Vegeta: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power burst): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Merged Zamasu: 88,104,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Beerus(Holding back): 88,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Beerus(Full power): 100,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2=[2xSuper Saiyan]/[100xbase]
Super Saiyan 3=[4xSuper Saiyan 2]/[400xbase]
Quake of Fury=[1,000,000xbase]/[20,000xSuper Saiyan]
Super Saiyan God=[1,500,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[1,680,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Full power)=[1.45xSuper Saiyan God]/[2,175,000xbase]
Super Saiyan(Goku Black)=[1,700xbase]
Super Saiyan Rose=[1,930xbase]
Fusion multiplier[Merged Zamasu]=A+B(1.1)
Battle of Gods arc Super Saiyan God Goku: 60,000,000,000,000,000
Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 2,037,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 4,075,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 16,300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 68,460,000,000,000,000
Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 40,750,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 68,460,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black: 21,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 35,700,000,000,000,000
Base Goku Black(Zenkai): 41,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 70,550,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 80,095,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Vegeta: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power burst): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Merged Zamasu: 88,104,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Beerus(Holding back): 88,000,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000
Beerus(Full power): 100,000,000,000,000,000
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supersaiyangodgogeta said:
Thing is, the smallest boost possible for Goku is 2x. He can go up to 10 as SSJB. Even if you ignore his trainings and the SSJB, a hypothetical SSJGKK Goku would still be stronger than Beerus (6 x 2 = 12). So yeah, according to the scale, Goku would wipe the floor with Beerus.
The SSJB costs much more energy than the SSJG. It wouldn't make sense for two experienced fighters like Goku and Vegeta to use this form if it wasn't much stronger than the SSJG, as it would cost too much stamina for what it's worth.
This is why, for example, they don't use the ASSJ and USSJ, despite the fact these forms are far stronger than the regular SSJ. That, and the speed default. Heck, the only reason Goku even used the SSJ3 against Boo is because without this form, he is simply no match for him.
On that logic, it's pretty obvious that the SSJB is much stronger. It should be at least twice as powerful as the SSJG.
Guess what ? This is exactly how AT described the SSJ2 and SSJ3 compared to the SSJ. Yet they're way stronger than this form. Just compared SSJ Gohan VS Perfect Cell (holding back) and SSJ2 Gohan VS Perfect Cell (full powered). Let's not talk about Majin SSJ2 Vegeta VS Fat Boo and SSJ3 Goku VS Fat Boo. See my point ?
Correction: Toriyama's scale being true is contingent on whether or not you can logically make it fit according to the statements and fight scenes.
The thing ? It isn't.
SSJB Goku and Vegeta are at least twice as powerful as SSJG Goku (BoG), and that's without taking into account their training since back then. Just look at Goku Black for reference:
* His base form is stronger than SSJ2 Goku. In manga, he is even more powerful, because he is stronger than SSJ2 Trunks, who is as strong as SSJ3 Goku in this version. And that's before his Zenkai.
* After said Zenkai, Goku Black's speed could impress SSJB Vegeta in Anime. In the manga, his SSJ form was outright curbstomping him.
* Then there is the SSJR, which is basically the SSJB with a different color.
The mere fact that Vegeta was able to stomp him in equal forms (SSJR Black is basically Zamasu's version of the SSJB) is an evidence that he got much, much stronger. Basically, it means he could wipe the floor with SSJG Goku (BoG) with his SSJ form ! Think about it.
MSSJB Goku is even stronger, because he could fight off Merged Zamasu, who was stomping them earlier. MSSJB Vegeta (you know, the one who beat Black) is stated to be just as strong. Beerus still one-shotted him, and he was still vastly holding back. Heck, he even complained that Goku and Vegeta were so weak they couldn't even be considered his rivals.
It takes Vegetto, who can beat an opponent that could curbstomp SSJ3 Goku, as SSJ, for Goku and Vegeta to be able to even compete with Beerus's power.
In the end, here is the gap between Beerus and SSJG Goku:
Beerus ~ SSJB Vegetto >>> MSSJB Vegeta = MSSJB Goku >= Merged Zamasu >>> SSJB Vegeta (post-RoSaT) = SSJB Goku (End of Trunks Arc) >>> SSJR Black >>> SSJ Black (post-Zenkai) >>> SSJB Vegeta (pre-Zenkai) > SSJB Vegeta (Champa Arc) = SSJB Goku (Champa Arc) > SSJB Vegeta = SSJB Goku (RoF Arc) >>> SSJG Goku (RoF Arc) >>> SSJG Goku (BoG)
Of course you fit just fine: you've conveniently put the SSJB's multiplier to near ridiculousness for no logical reason, as well as putting very weak multipliers to Goku Black's forms as if there was any logical reason for his forms to be any weaker than Goku's and Vegeta's, and you've ignored the fact that Beerus was still holding back when he was toying with Vegeta, took a full powered blow in the face without much damage, and one-shotted him. All the while claiming that it would take him millions of years to reach his power.
The scale doesn't fit, no matter how you look at it.
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Yeah, obviously gokus amped kaioken power is greater than beerus. Don't even know what point you're trying to make.Mirai SSJ said:
The point was that kaioken isn't labeled as gokus full power in any official material. Only blue is, so that's all that's taken into account when Goku is stated to be weaker than beerus. Kaioken isn't gokus full power, just a technique that pushes him past his limits.
No? You arbitrarily tried to relate other flawed forms with blue to try and overpower it.
Blue gives nowhere near a multifold increase over god and we have a scale of reference given by the author that confirms this. Despite that, the form is still worth it to Goku and vegeta.
Can't just say that if blues power boost is as I said that Goku and vegeta wouldn't use it, even though that's what's shown to be the case.
No it isnt. Unless beerus is outright stated to have used some absurdly low percentage Vs ssjg Goku and blue vegeta, there is no retcon. What you're trying to do is take authority from the author and put what you deem as "logical" as the truth. No, not happening.
Most of the gaps here are exaggerated and some of the powerups are made up, like vegeta getting stronger from his rosat training even though it was already stated that he didn't get any stronger.
And no, beerus isn't as strong as Vegito.
The Ssb multiplier is that low since that's how low it would have to be according to toriyamas scale.
No, blacks rose multiplier isn't the same as blue. The animes supplementary material stated that rose black was a rival to Super Saiyan blue in power and that's what's shown since vegeta overpowered rose black before he became stronger and pierced him with his ki blade.
Yeah, my list takes into account that beerus held back against vegeta. It blatantly list the power level of a "holding back" beerus.
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supersaiyangodgogeta said:
Except he isn't. Unless you think Kaioken Goku is stronger than Vegetto Blue, which is simply ridiculous. The mere fact that Whis states that there is a universe in which there is a "mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat" when answering Goku's question about their universe's chances means that Goku still hasn't quite reached this level, Kaioken or not.
Another obvious flaw with your argument ? The fact that you have Kaioken Goku Blue > Beerus > Mastered Goku Blue >= Merged Zamasu. But, a kick from Kaioken Goku Blue did no more than pissing him off. Plus, what was the point of fusing if you think Goku could have handled Zamasu with the Kaioken alone ?
You're still wrong about Kaioken Goku > Beerus, though.
Arbitrarily ? You sure are lacking in self-awareness. My whole point is about ASSJ, USSJ, SSJ2 and SSJ3 costing a lot of stamina compared to the SSJ AND being a lot stronger. Why would the SSJB be any different compared to the SSJG ? My argument is the opposite of "arbitrary", in fact. Heck, the SSJB is literally described as the Super Saiyan form of the Super Saiyan God. How does it give a small boost ?
So your counter-argument to someone who doesn't trust the scale...is to bring up the scale anyways, in a subtle way of telling me "shut up, AT already made a scale, therefore you're wrong, no matter what you say, period". Yeah, this is defintely gonna work, especially when my whole point is about the scale being wrong, and I gave a lot of arguments and evidence for it. You simply don't get to say that this is a confirmation before giving a single argument (which you haven't done yet, strangely) in favor of me being in the wrong.
How is the context different ? The SSJ3 is just a simple powered SSJ form, the same way the SSJB is a simple power up. One word changed, same signification, and anyone would understand that the context is definitely comparable.
SJG Goku = 60 % Beerus is still not a fact to me. Bring an argument that proves it right, or don't state it.
You know there is a retcon when it takes Vegetto Blue for the characters to even suggest that Goku and Vegeta are anywhere near Beerus's full power. The fact that you're the only one who is still denying that at this point is pretty sad...
You're talking about Black's statement, right ? Do you know what this reminds me of ? Vegeta's comment about Perfect Cell. No points for guessing what happened shortly after...
It's the same here: Black underestimated Vegeta and got beat up for his troubles. It happened a dozens of times in DB, and this scene is no exception.
In their first fight, Vegeta got curbstomped by SSJ Black (post-Zenkai) in his strongest form. In his second fight, he could easily dodge and block all of SSJR Black's hits in a weaker form, while only turning into SSJB to hit him harder.
Conclusion: Vegeta powered up, it's a fact more than backed up by the fights scenes. You'll have to do a lot of glossing over if you want to convince anyone of the opposite.
And no, the gaps aren't exaggerated.
SSJB Vegetto stomped Merged Zamasu, who stomped SSJB Goku and Vegeta, who stomped SSJR Black, who stomped SSJB Vegeta (pre-RoSaT) even as SSJ. And you'd be hard-pressed to tell me that the SSJR isn't far stronger than the SSJ.
Kaioshin seems to disagree there.
Ch. 23, pg. 43.6-7
Context: as Vegetto prepares his Final Kamehameha
Kaioshin: “A-amazing… This is incredible…! The power of Vegetto… Could it already be greater than Lord Beerus’s?!”
The mere fact he is even asking/hesitating shows that Beerus's power is comparable to Vegetto Blue. Anything lower than that is curbstomp material, which includes Kaioken Goku Blue.
While conveniently ignoring the arguments for it to not make any sense.
Thing is, did they meant that Black's SSJR rivals the SSJB in general (which would favor my point) or that Black was a rival with Goku and Vegeta (which would favor your point) ?
For your point, I have to point out that Black was playing around, as he told SSJ Rage Trunks he'd fight seriously for the first time. Therefore, Vegeta overpowered nothing, and he certainly wasn't in Black's league at this point. They're not rivals.
That, along with the SSJR being no more than the SSJB with a different color, proves that my point is far more likely.
Yet you think he was at full power when he one-shotted Vegeta ?
Also, you didn't adress Goku Black's SSJ multiplier.
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It doesn't matter if you don't "trust" toriyamas scale. That's inconsequential to it being factual, so everything I said stands since your refutation of the authors word isn't based on anything but your own skepticism.
Your whole argument about kaioken is all over the place and doesn't make any sense. Just because Goku can temporarily amp his power above beerus doesn't mean he can beat beerus. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito=>merged zamasu(light off justice)>Ssb kaioken>merged zamasu(halo)>Whis>beerus>merged zamasu>Ssb Goku
Merged zamasu in a state that was weaker than the one he fought Vegito in was stated to be beyond all the gods.
Black said no such thing to trunks and you're probably twisting some statement regardless. The facts are that black in super Saiyan rose was stated to rival blue and the only ssbs are Goku and vegeta. So blacks power in rose rivals Goku and vegeta.
Vegeta already overpowered black and he needed to power up from the beating and stab vegeta to beat him.
Kaioshin "hesitation" means nothing of the sort. At most you can say it implies that he isn't completely sure but you have no grounds to assume why.
Your whole argument about kaioken is all over the place and doesn't make any sense. Just because Goku can temporarily amp his power above beerus doesn't mean he can beat beerus. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito=>merged zamasu(light off justice)>Ssb kaioken>merged zamasu(halo)>Whis>beerus>merged zamasu>Ssb Goku
Merged zamasu in a state that was weaker than the one he fought Vegito in was stated to be beyond all the gods.
Black said no such thing to trunks and you're probably twisting some statement regardless. The facts are that black in super Saiyan rose was stated to rival blue and the only ssbs are Goku and vegeta. So blacks power in rose rivals Goku and vegeta.
Vegeta already overpowered black and he needed to power up from the beating and stab vegeta to beat him.
Kaioshin "hesitation" means nothing of the sort. At most you can say it implies that he isn't completely sure but you have no grounds to assume why.
