What implies PSSJB is > SSJB?

[GSM123]

Just something i noticed. Now i know that PSSJB Goku was a match to :faggots while SSJB was not, but that may be because he's not losing power:

So, is SSJB just worse than SSJ3 when it comes to stamina or can SSJB maintain it's peak for a while before becoming and PSSJB is just a Deus Ex Machina that literally solves the stamina problems and is a power up?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's useable but loses power right-away, where-as Super-Saiyan 3 is unusable all-together.

 

[GSM123]

It's useable but loses power right-away, where-as Super-Saiyan 3 is unusable all-together.

SSJ3 isn't unusable

So you think PSSJB = SSJB but without power loss?

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Goku couldn't maintain it in the living world, at-least in the Boo-Saga.

Kind-of I guess, but also maybe not. Maybe the drain is so huge that it drops-off immediately as they transform and that's why Perfected is so straining and hard to maintain at-first. The power-boost is just huge enough to overcome that short-coming.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

Just something i noticed. Now i know that PSSJB Goku was a match to :faggots while SSJB was not, but that may be because he's not losing power:

So, is SSJB just worse than SSJ3 when it comes to stamina or can SSJB maintain it's peak for a while before becoming and PSSJB is just a Deus Ex Machina that literally solves the stamina problems and is a power up?

It's not a power up. But it looks that way because of Toyo's inconsistent writing.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The scans I posted above shows it's a power-up.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

The scans I posted above shows it's a power-up.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta got destroyed. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta put up a much better fight and Beerus said he improved.

Vegeta was stronger (after the rosat training) or at the very least equal to Goku during the Trunks saga. Perfected Super Saiyan Goku had enough power to fight Zamasu equally despite doing no additional training. Since Goku and Vegeta are mostly the same beforehand, it means Perfected Super Saiyan Blue made him substantially more powerful.

 

[Pocket-Gog~]

But it didn't. The literal explanation of the form is that it just fixes Super Saiyan Blue's shit stamina drain, as well as it's weakness of only being capable of outputting its full power in short bursts. Goku was just fighting Merged Zamasu at full power, as well as Vegeta's SSJG and SSJB combo.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

That doesn't change the fact that Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta went from being unable to touch Beerus to actually hitting him and pissing him off when he transformed. Nevermind the fact that Beerus said he became stronger after he transformed. Unless we're to assume Vegeta refused to start out at full-power against Beerus for whatever reason, his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue was simply more powerful. The fight shows this.

Whis said Goku is most likely no longer ahead of Vegeta now that he's acquired the same form. Meaning, in equal forms, they should be on the same level. If Perfected only allowed them to use their full-power for a longer duration, then Goku was never ahead of him. The Oracle Fish says Goku was stronger than Vegeta during the Zamasu fight.

Vegeta said he could feel that Goku had the power to fight Zamasu while merged. If its power isn't accessible through Super Saiyan Blue alone, that means Perfected is a more powerful form. Whis said it was Goku's strongest form during the ToP.

 

[Void]

It's definitely a power up. It's just a power up to 100% of Blue's power. Apparently they just weren't ever close to 100% before.

 

[Pyro]

Which could mean that <10% SSB Vegeta being around SSJ Goku's level in the U6 Tournament isn't a fair representation of Blue's power.

 

[GSM123]

Which could mean that <10% SSB Vegeta being around SSJ Goku's level in the U6 Tournament isn't a fair representation of Blue's power.

Might as well assume Vegeta was way lower than 10% than we think (Like, weaker than 1%) and Whis was just being vague as fuck.

Tho if we assume <10% was a understatement we have no reason to assume Base DBS Goku > Base Z Goku, and FnF's powerscaling gets all fucked up.

That doesn't change the fact that Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta went from being unable to touch Beerus to actually hitting him and pissing him off when he transformed. Nevermind the fact that Beerus said he became stronger after he transformed. Unless we're to assume Vegeta refused to start out at full-power against Beerus for whatever reason, his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue was simply more powerful. The fight shows this.

Whis said Goku is most likely no longer ahead of Vegeta now that he's acquired the same form. Meaning, in equal forms, they should be on the same level. If Perfected only allowed them to use their full-power for a longer duration, then Goku was never ahead of him. The Oracle Fish says Goku was stronger than Vegeta during the Zamasu fight.

Vegeta said he could feel that Goku had the power to fight Zamasu while merged. If its power isn't accessible through Super Saiyan Blue alone, that means Perfected is a more powerful form. Whis said it was Goku's strongest form during the ToP.

Well, you can chalk it up to skill like VoR does the stamina issues being so bad you lose like 75% of power the second you transform, though that still makes PSSJB look like a power up since losing that much power the second you transform makes your FP unusable.

EV, how strong do you think Vegeta's power bursts from his fight against Black were? Do you think he has PSSJB power there?

 

[GSM123]

Wait, [mention]Pyro[/mention] we don't have to fuck up the <10% line!

Context: Whis continuing to explain how Hit is losing
Beerus: “But Vegeta couldn’t do that even in Super Saiyan Blue.”
Whis: “Back then, he wasn’t even able to perform at 10 percent of Super Saiyan Blue’s usual strength. That form is something you can only use a few times in a single day. It consumes too much energy.”

No wait, we do...

Context: Goku and Zamasu appear to be fighting evenly
Trunks: “Goku… This is amazing… He’s fighting equally with Zamasu…!”
Vegeta: “Kakarrot… He managed to seal the Blue’s overflowing power within his body.”
Trunks: “What…?”
Vegeta: “Blue’s weakness is that its full power lasts only for a short while. He faced that weakness and overcame it.”

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I think Super Saiyan God Vegeta using Blue bursts was >Rose Black and Blue Goku. Blue Vegeta was having trouble against powered-up Super Saiyan Black, so Vegeta's power-up seems to

Definitely not anywhere near Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku. With the way he talked about Goku, you'd think he felt a huge amount of power hidden while they were fused. It kinda reminds me of Krillin sensing that Trunks was hiding a transformation, though being fused would give him much greater insight.

So basically:

Super Saiyan Blue Goku=Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta
Powered-Up Super Saiyan Black>=Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Goku
Super Saiyan Rose Black>Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta and Goku
Post-Rosat Super Saiyan God Vegeta w/Blue's bursts>Super Saiyan Rose Black
Merged Zamasu>Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta
Merged Zamasu=Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku

If it's just a matter of utilizing their full-power, the overflowing Godly power of Super Saiyan Blue probably keeps them from accessing the majority of it. Assuming the basic Super Saiyan Blue form is so shitty that they can't attain their real full-power, Perfected Super Saiyan Blue would logically be the more powerful form all-around. I don't believe Super Saiyan Blue Goku attacked Zamasu at less than his full-power. Vegeta went at Beerus with his all, too. Perfected Super Saiyan Blue seems to allow them to use a lot more power that they'd otherwise be unable to use as normal Super Saiyan Blue.

 

[GSM123]

You forgot to complete the first paragraph

About Black, i don't think he has to be stronger than Vegeta in Rosé. CC made a good argument a while ago about Vegeta having a shouki loss because the idea of Zamasu always being there to heal Black was bothering him. Makes sense based on how Black is merely Zamasu on Goku's body (Giving us no reason to assume he's > Goku) and on how Blue Vegeta wasn't far above him but neither was God Vegeta.

But i agree on the SSJB thing overall. Whis literally tells Kuririn PSSJB is Goku's strongest form.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Lol, I meant to say Vegeta's power-up seems huge.

Blue Vegeta was actually getting his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Black initially to the point where he needed to eat a senzu. He did a bit better afterwards, but they seemed around the same level with Black having the advantage. If Super Saiyan Black is at the very least equal to Blue Vegeta, Super Saiyan Rose has to be way above that. If not, then it basically makes the boost seem minuscule even though Black made a big deal about the soul of a God and the Saiyan body permanently becoming one.

Black and Zamasu's hype alone tells me Super Saiyan Rose has to be way above Super Saiyan.

 

[GSM123]

He had already been fighting with Blue for a while, and after taking the Senzu he puts up a bit of a fight against SSJ Black.

Vegeta clearly shows frustation towards how Black can always be healed and come back for more and even implies he can take on Black if Goku gets rid of Zamasu. Him being thrown off balance makes way more sense than assuming Zamasu could draw more power from Goku's body than Goku himself and that Vegeta got stronger in the Rosat.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vegeta showed frustration towards the end of the fight with Super Saiyan Black. Prior to that, he was talking shit to Zamasu about how Beerus killed him in the past. He was not shown to be overly annoyed until the fight was decided. Vegeta put up a better fight after healing, but Black's hits were actually damaging Vegeta. Since Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was already superior to Super Saiyan Black, it's more likely that he didn't use full-power.

After he was healed, we see him power-up before attacking Black:

This most likely was his full-power.

Black stated that his soul was becoming one with Goku's body. The more powerful he became, the more accustomed he had gotten to the body. He made it into his own. That's how he was able to reach Super Saiyan Rose. The state was stated to have surpassed Super Saiyan God. If you go by the exhibition tournament, Super Saiyan God alone was shown and stated to be on an entirely different level than Super Saiyan 3. I don't see why this same transition wouldn't apply to Super Saiyan-->Super Saiyan Rose.

Overall, Blue Vegeta and Super Saiyan Black should be comparable. If Rose Black isn't superior to Blue Vegeta, then the change in power was minor at best...and I don't get that impression when I read the chapter.