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please tell me your opinion and read my explanation and tell me what do you think of this explanation:
I will be explaining why Buutenks beats M12 Gogeta
We know that Movies take place in another dimension than the Main Continuity, given Akira Toriyama himself said that:
However that doesn't mean that each movie will have different power scaling than the Main Continuity unless hinted otherwise. Akira Toriyama doesn't say anything about the movies not scaling to the Main Continuity, UNLESS the movie itself disagrees
For example, Movie 8 has alot of instances where the Main Continuity pales in comparison to this Movie's feats and implications when it comes to Power Scaling, and therefore we don't use the Main Continuity's scaling to justify any value there.
Movies are all made BASED ENTIRELY on the work from the Main Continuity, and all they do is make changes throughout the stream of events. That's all:
So based on Akira Toriyama's work, they make the stories and make alterations. If a Movie doesn't have anything in its scaling that differs from the Buu Saga, then you can't say it's different at all. Daizenshuu 6 compares the Movie timelines to the Main Continuity, and unless something is shown which makes the scaling differ, then it's no different at all. The EXACT same events happen in the Buu Saga AND Movie 12 with absolutely no alteration (like in other movies), and the only thing that has gone differently is the appearance of Janemba. That is all. To say that the power scaling is different would be contradictory since the events are passing the way they're supposed to be and only a slight change between these two timelines occurred, which led to this change
An example is that the Jump Anime Library 1: Dragon Ball Z Movie 12 Guide states that Vegeta died from Buu exactly the same case as it happened in the Main Continuity:
This guide assumes itself within the plot progression of the Buu Saga after Volume 40, but prior to Volume 41, which is exactly what Daizenshuu 6 States (unlike movies such as Movie 8 and Movie 7, they are regarded as part of it, at least from another timeline, but they're completely in complete sync with each other):
You'd have to make so many assumptions just to try and say that the scaling from the Main Continuity wouldn't apply to the Movie Scaling. Nothing suggests otherwise, and thus Goku in Movie 12 is equal to the Goku from the Main Continuity.
First, Goku states that Fat Janemba is stronger than anyone Goku has ever felt which includes Majin Buu and Gotenks:
Movie 12 was released before the introduction of Gohan, Buutenks or anyone after Dragon Ball Manga Volume 40:
Yet Goku raped the shit out of him, which places Ssj3 Goku above Janemba.
Goku stated that Majin Buu forced Goku to go Ssj3 (Fat Buu, in this case) which would mean Fat Buu is stronger than any other form of Goku, but he's inferior to Ssj3 Goku in particular:
Vegeta's placement is very obvious from here. Our Chain is now this:
Ssj3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > Fat Buu (M12) > Vegeta (M12)
According to the Jump Anime Library 1: Dragon Ball Z Movie 12 Guide, it states that Gotenks had enough power that it overwhelmed Fat Buu, and given that Fat Buu doesn't exist in Movie 12, we can infer that Gotenks killed Fat Buu (the last part of the scan is kind of ambiguous, but nothing of it goes against what's stated and it's more or less something about him being cocky). Since Super Buu's existence isn't even hinted in Movie 12, we can easily infer that Gotenks had 2 days of training rather than being interrupted by Super Buu, and therefore Gotenks being that powerful is very plausible and safe. This doesn't really go against the notion that Movie 12 = Buu Saga, because Gotenks in Movie 12 simply had more time to train which wasn't shown in the Buu Saga so it could very well make Gotenks above Fat Buu is he did have all the 2 days available:
Daizenshuu 6 states that peace is back to earth after killing Janemba, suggesting that Fat Buu no longer exists back then, which would mean he would have been killed and and nothing else:
We're aware that Goku gets overpowered by Janemba Evil form. So our chain becomes:
Final Form Janemba > Ssj3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Fat Buu (M12) > Vegeta (M12)
According to Dragon Ball Forever Guide, Goku and Kid Buu were equal in strength when they fought each other:
However Kid Buu in the end gains the advantage overall and the Spirit Bomb struggle shows that Kid Buu showed his true power only back then (There's no proof that Ssj3 Full Power wouldn't have made Kid Buu face the same case, but the Spirit Bomb was implied to be the strongest bet they relied on other than fusion, yet Kid Buu overpowered the Spirit Bomb). So we know Kid Buu is not far off from Goku's power at all. Final Form Janemba manages to fight the same Goku who's supposedly as strong as Buu Saga Goku, yet Goku manages to give him trouble.
Daizenshuu 6 States that Janemba is superior to Goku and gives him trouble fighting. This would mean that Goku at least could hold his own even for a slight, not that it's an utter rape (this scan also says Janemba is stronger than everybody else, and a proof of that is that he defeated Ssj3 Goku, which would mean Goku was at the top until Janemba came by):
Goku states that there's absolutely no chance of defeating Janemba at all unless he fuses with Vegeta. Contrary to this, Goku believes at full power he could defeat Kid Buu, and doesn't think that it's far-fetched at all, but against Janemba, he dismisses any trial completely except Fusion. By that time, Gohan was sent to the Kaioshin realm and Old Kai was revealed, which means his ability was as well. So what we can conclude is that only fusion out of everything else could work and nothing else:
Gogeta only defeated Janemba as a Super Saiyan, and therefore we can objectively say that he's superior to Janemba, but since nothing suggests he can do it in base and seeing how he hurried to go Super Saiyan as soon as fusion formed, it would mean Janemba is superior to Base Gogeta unless proven otherwise. The result of the Fusion Dance has only been ever shown to be above an individual Super Saiyan, so naturally this would place Base Gogeta even below Ssj2 Goku or Ssj2 Vegeta, so he'd be just above Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta. However we have a counter to this, since we can easily infer that Base Goku and Vegeta are above Base Goten and Trunks, and usually the result of a Base Form Fusion is above the Super Saiyan of the individuals fusing, then that would place Base Gogeta above Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT.
I'll be using the chain from my Daizenshuu Post and insert the chain I got till now (I upgraded the Fat Buu = Super Buu to Super Buu >= Fat Buu due to Dragon Ball Forever stating that Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, without specifying any scale):
Ssj Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ssj Gogeta > Final Form Janemba > Kid Buu > Ssj3 Goku M12 = Ssj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Ssj3 Gotenks Post ROSAT = Buff Buu >= Super Buu >= Fat Buu > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT > Ssj2 Vegeta M12 = Majin Ssj2 Vegeta = Ssj2 Goku > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Pre ROSAT > Base Gotenks Post ROSAT > Base Gotenks Pre ROSAT
Till Now I placed Gogeta above Janemba and not Buutenks because that's what we know, and now we'll check whether this is true or not.
Buuhan states that if Goku and Vegeta fuse, they will still be inferior to Buuhan. Buuhan is aware of the Fusion Dance and how much it boosts the individuals after the fusing since he has Gotenks and is aware of the power of the individual kids. The rival boost is still not even referenced in this situation and we'll exclude it altogether.
Goku wanted to transform with Gohan to fight Buutenks. They didn't specify which form of Super Saiyan. Presumably it's Ssj3 Goku, because back then Gohan's base form was ultimate form and Goku wanted to match Gohan in order to fuse, until the Potara was introduced. Old Kai says that the Potara is more than enough to make Goku deal things in Base, Goku wanted to transform into Ssj3 in order to match Ultimate Gohan's strength or such. Goku just says "should I transform to Super Saiyan" but Super Saiyan refers to anyone. Goku is aware of how powerful the Fusion Dance is, or has an approximate idea, while he doesn't when it comes to the Potara. Daizenshuu States that fusion dance can only occur if the individuals fusing are almost near each other in powers (ASIDE from equalizing their powers, which means the difference between the the two isn't much at all):
Buutenks states that Fusion Dance Gokhan won't work against him, but he will finish him either way for certainty's sake. This lines up with our conclusion that it's Ssj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan who will fuse, since it makes sense given that Buutenks doubted that Goku's plan would work despite being aware of Gohan's and Goku's power, yet he still had to make sure, but Goku thinks that he'll be able to beat Buutenks and save the day, and Old Kai doesn't disagree at all. Old Kai however says that the Potara will make them powerful enough that even Base form will be enough, yet Goku says to Vegeta (despite having a view of its power) that he's not sure he'd win against Buuhan if he fuses with Vegeta:
The difference between Buuhan and Buutenks isn't much. Buuhan doesn't note any notable difference at all other than saying he got stronger:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”
There isn't that much difference between Ssj3 Gotenks's and Ultimate Gohan's Powers, which makes this quite easy to conclude
Final Chain:
Ssj Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Fusion Dance Ssj3 Ultimate Gokhan > Buutenks > Ssj3 Gogeta > Ssj2 Gogeta > Ssj Gogeta > Final Form Janemba > Kid Buu > Ssj3 Goku M12 = Ssj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Ssj3 Gotenks Post ROSAT = Buff Buu >= Super Buu >= Fat Buu > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT > Ssj2 Vegeta M12 = Majin Ssj2 Vegeta = Ssj2 Goku > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Pre ROSAT > Base Gotenks Post ROSAT > Base Gotenks Pre ROSAT
The reason there's no rival boost is because Movie 12 was released before such concept even gets mentioned, and no mention of it was even stated. Therefore, we can't say it applies here.
DISCUSS
I will be explaining why Buutenks beats M12 Gogeta
We know that Movies take place in another dimension than the Main Continuity, given Akira Toriyama himself said that:
However that doesn't mean that each movie will have different power scaling than the Main Continuity unless hinted otherwise. Akira Toriyama doesn't say anything about the movies not scaling to the Main Continuity, UNLESS the movie itself disagrees
For example, Movie 8 has alot of instances where the Main Continuity pales in comparison to this Movie's feats and implications when it comes to Power Scaling, and therefore we don't use the Main Continuity's scaling to justify any value there.
Movies are all made BASED ENTIRELY on the work from the Main Continuity, and all they do is make changes throughout the stream of events. That's all:
So based on Akira Toriyama's work, they make the stories and make alterations. If a Movie doesn't have anything in its scaling that differs from the Buu Saga, then you can't say it's different at all. Daizenshuu 6 compares the Movie timelines to the Main Continuity, and unless something is shown which makes the scaling differ, then it's no different at all. The EXACT same events happen in the Buu Saga AND Movie 12 with absolutely no alteration (like in other movies), and the only thing that has gone differently is the appearance of Janemba. That is all. To say that the power scaling is different would be contradictory since the events are passing the way they're supposed to be and only a slight change between these two timelines occurred, which led to this change
An example is that the Jump Anime Library 1: Dragon Ball Z Movie 12 Guide states that Vegeta died from Buu exactly the same case as it happened in the Main Continuity:
This guide assumes itself within the plot progression of the Buu Saga after Volume 40, but prior to Volume 41, which is exactly what Daizenshuu 6 States (unlike movies such as Movie 8 and Movie 7, they are regarded as part of it, at least from another timeline, but they're completely in complete sync with each other):
You'd have to make so many assumptions just to try and say that the scaling from the Main Continuity wouldn't apply to the Movie Scaling. Nothing suggests otherwise, and thus Goku in Movie 12 is equal to the Goku from the Main Continuity.
First, Goku states that Fat Janemba is stronger than anyone Goku has ever felt which includes Majin Buu and Gotenks:
Movie 12 was released before the introduction of Gohan, Buutenks or anyone after Dragon Ball Manga Volume 40:
Yet Goku raped the shit out of him, which places Ssj3 Goku above Janemba.
Goku stated that Majin Buu forced Goku to go Ssj3 (Fat Buu, in this case) which would mean Fat Buu is stronger than any other form of Goku, but he's inferior to Ssj3 Goku in particular:
Vegeta's placement is very obvious from here. Our Chain is now this:
Ssj3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > Fat Buu (M12) > Vegeta (M12)
According to the Jump Anime Library 1: Dragon Ball Z Movie 12 Guide, it states that Gotenks had enough power that it overwhelmed Fat Buu, and given that Fat Buu doesn't exist in Movie 12, we can infer that Gotenks killed Fat Buu (the last part of the scan is kind of ambiguous, but nothing of it goes against what's stated and it's more or less something about him being cocky). Since Super Buu's existence isn't even hinted in Movie 12, we can easily infer that Gotenks had 2 days of training rather than being interrupted by Super Buu, and therefore Gotenks being that powerful is very plausible and safe. This doesn't really go against the notion that Movie 12 = Buu Saga, because Gotenks in Movie 12 simply had more time to train which wasn't shown in the Buu Saga so it could very well make Gotenks above Fat Buu is he did have all the 2 days available:
Daizenshuu 6 states that peace is back to earth after killing Janemba, suggesting that Fat Buu no longer exists back then, which would mean he would have been killed and and nothing else:
We're aware that Goku gets overpowered by Janemba Evil form. So our chain becomes:
Final Form Janemba > Ssj3 Goku (M12) > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Fat Buu (M12) > Vegeta (M12)
According to Dragon Ball Forever Guide, Goku and Kid Buu were equal in strength when they fought each other:
However Kid Buu in the end gains the advantage overall and the Spirit Bomb struggle shows that Kid Buu showed his true power only back then (There's no proof that Ssj3 Full Power wouldn't have made Kid Buu face the same case, but the Spirit Bomb was implied to be the strongest bet they relied on other than fusion, yet Kid Buu overpowered the Spirit Bomb). So we know Kid Buu is not far off from Goku's power at all. Final Form Janemba manages to fight the same Goku who's supposedly as strong as Buu Saga Goku, yet Goku manages to give him trouble.
Daizenshuu 6 States that Janemba is superior to Goku and gives him trouble fighting. This would mean that Goku at least could hold his own even for a slight, not that it's an utter rape (this scan also says Janemba is stronger than everybody else, and a proof of that is that he defeated Ssj3 Goku, which would mean Goku was at the top until Janemba came by):
Goku states that there's absolutely no chance of defeating Janemba at all unless he fuses with Vegeta. Contrary to this, Goku believes at full power he could defeat Kid Buu, and doesn't think that it's far-fetched at all, but against Janemba, he dismisses any trial completely except Fusion. By that time, Gohan was sent to the Kaioshin realm and Old Kai was revealed, which means his ability was as well. So what we can conclude is that only fusion out of everything else could work and nothing else:
Gogeta only defeated Janemba as a Super Saiyan, and therefore we can objectively say that he's superior to Janemba, but since nothing suggests he can do it in base and seeing how he hurried to go Super Saiyan as soon as fusion formed, it would mean Janemba is superior to Base Gogeta unless proven otherwise. The result of the Fusion Dance has only been ever shown to be above an individual Super Saiyan, so naturally this would place Base Gogeta even below Ssj2 Goku or Ssj2 Vegeta, so he'd be just above Super Saiyan Goku or Vegeta. However we have a counter to this, since we can easily infer that Base Goku and Vegeta are above Base Goten and Trunks, and usually the result of a Base Form Fusion is above the Super Saiyan of the individuals fusing, then that would place Base Gogeta above Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT.
I'll be using the chain from my Daizenshuu Post and insert the chain I got till now (I upgraded the Fat Buu = Super Buu to Super Buu >= Fat Buu due to Dragon Ball Forever stating that Super Buu is stronger than Fat Buu, without specifying any scale):
Ssj Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Buutenks > Ssj Gogeta > Final Form Janemba > Kid Buu > Ssj3 Goku M12 = Ssj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Ssj3 Gotenks Post ROSAT = Buff Buu >= Super Buu >= Fat Buu > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT > Ssj2 Vegeta M12 = Majin Ssj2 Vegeta = Ssj2 Goku > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Pre ROSAT > Base Gotenks Post ROSAT > Base Gotenks Pre ROSAT
Till Now I placed Gogeta above Janemba and not Buutenks because that's what we know, and now we'll check whether this is true or not.
Buuhan states that if Goku and Vegeta fuse, they will still be inferior to Buuhan. Buuhan is aware of the Fusion Dance and how much it boosts the individuals after the fusing since he has Gotenks and is aware of the power of the individual kids. The rival boost is still not even referenced in this situation and we'll exclude it altogether.
Goku wanted to transform with Gohan to fight Buutenks. They didn't specify which form of Super Saiyan. Presumably it's Ssj3 Goku, because back then Gohan's base form was ultimate form and Goku wanted to match Gohan in order to fuse, until the Potara was introduced. Old Kai says that the Potara is more than enough to make Goku deal things in Base, Goku wanted to transform into Ssj3 in order to match Ultimate Gohan's strength or such. Goku just says "should I transform to Super Saiyan" but Super Saiyan refers to anyone. Goku is aware of how powerful the Fusion Dance is, or has an approximate idea, while he doesn't when it comes to the Potara. Daizenshuu States that fusion dance can only occur if the individuals fusing are almost near each other in powers (ASIDE from equalizing their powers, which means the difference between the the two isn't much at all):
Buutenks states that Fusion Dance Gokhan won't work against him, but he will finish him either way for certainty's sake. This lines up with our conclusion that it's Ssj3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan who will fuse, since it makes sense given that Buutenks doubted that Goku's plan would work despite being aware of Gohan's and Goku's power, yet he still had to make sure, but Goku thinks that he'll be able to beat Buutenks and save the day, and Old Kai doesn't disagree at all. Old Kai however says that the Potara will make them powerful enough that even Base form will be enough, yet Goku says to Vegeta (despite having a view of its power) that he's not sure he'd win against Buuhan if he fuses with Vegeta:
The difference between Buuhan and Buutenks isn't much. Buuhan doesn't note any notable difference at all other than saying he got stronger:
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P13.1
Boo: “Fu…fuhahahaha…! This is great! I’ve powered up even more than before! And what’s more, now there’s no time limit!”
There isn't that much difference between Ssj3 Gotenks's and Ultimate Gohan's Powers, which makes this quite easy to conclude
Final Chain:
Ssj Vegito > Buuhan > Base Vegito > Fusion Dance Ssj3 Ultimate Gokhan > Buutenks > Ssj3 Gogeta > Ssj2 Gogeta > Ssj Gogeta > Final Form Janemba > Kid Buu > Ssj3 Goku M12 = Ssj3 Goku > Ultimate Gohan > Fat Janemba > Ssj Gotenks (Post 2 Days M12) > Ssj3 Gotenks Post ROSAT = Buff Buu >= Super Buu >= Fat Buu > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Post ROSAT > Ssj2 Vegeta M12 = Majin Ssj2 Vegeta = Ssj2 Goku > Base Gogeta > Ssj Gotenks Pre ROSAT > Base Gotenks Post ROSAT > Base Gotenks Pre ROSAT
The reason there's no rival boost is because Movie 12 was released before such concept even gets mentioned, and no mention of it was even stated. Therefore, we can't say it applies here.
DISCUSS
