Who was the 1st DBGT character to beat a hypothetical Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo)?

[Spiral-Force]

GT characters also have drastically low multipliers compared to Z characters, as sween with Goku being stated to only have more than doubled his power upon going SSJ. Appealing to base Goku being stronger than Boo isn't really saying much when he wouldn't even get 5 times stronger from going SSJ2, whereas Z characters were getting far more significant boosts. We also see that characters and guidebooks don't take into account hypothetical forms as seen with my Vegetto example in regard to SSJ4 Gogeta being the strongest across dimensions in the confines of GT.

I am of the opinion that Vegetto would benefit from a full SSJ2 and SSJ3 multiplier when accessing his strongest form, while SSJ's heavy nerf in GT likely means Goku's higher forms had nerfed multipliers as well. It gives plenty of wiggle room for SSJ3 Vegetto to incise out SSJ4 Goku.

Given that the 50x Super Saiyan multiplier is referenced in the GT Perfect Files, I'd argue that the statement you're referring to was an understatement and that nothing actually changed. Villains don't exactly have a good track record for judging the extent of Super Saiyan increases, like when Gero treated Goku's power up as just a minor inconvenience, or Babidi thinking little to nothing over Goku's SSJ stages. Their intent is to rip the heroes heads off, not be a compass for powerscalers.

Goku could not accurately judge Perfect Cell's hidden power even after fighting him, and he admits Dabra (someone far weaker than himself) surpassed his expectations. Vegeta similarly could not accurately guage Kid Boo's power just from feeling his Ki or from watching his fight with SSJ3 Goku, as seen by him being shocked by how powerful and fast his punches and kicks were. What they seem to be able to do is compare Ki sizes, but since Vegetto never needed more than SSJ to deal with even an enraged Boohan, SSJ3 Vegetto's hypothetical power (something which isn't even accessible anymore at that point) being counted is dubious at best.

This power judging talking point doesn't seem like it's leading anywhere. I'm not claiming that a power judgement is incapable of being wrong. And given that Goku could pinpoint Gohan's hidden power during the Cell era, and could precisely judge his major inferiority to Super Buu, it wouldn't be logical to think that strength judgements can't be right without being corrected in some way. Whether or not Vegito was thought about doesn't matter. Super Saiyan increases can easily be calculated, and Vegito doesn't appear to be as impressive as you paint him when properly scaled.

The only SSJ4 that existed at the time of the airing of the GT TV special (the ani-manga version of which says Vegetto >= SSJ4) was SSJ4 Goku, and it's clearly not speaking about Gogeta since SSJ4 Gogeta is far above any form of Z Vegetto. And again, it isn't speaking about a hypothetical GT version of Vegetto since that'd definitely be above SSJ4 Goku.

That background information doesn't do anything since Goku wasn't directly compared. So at most, you're arguing on the grounds of assumption, so our disagreement remains. You're kind of looping with the hypothetical Vegito stuff; I'd prefer for you not to strawman me about it again.

Something that we should dig into is what you said earlier about characters and guidebooks not taking hypothetical forms into account. Unless you misspoke, wouldn't that mean you're arguing SSJ Vegito >= SSJ4 Goku? If so, then we can't let that slide. This needs to be unravelled.

 

[SIAD]

@Goku9001

 

[Papasmurf]

Given that the 50x Super Saiyan multiplier is referenced in the GT Perfect Files, I'd argue that the statement you're referring to was an understatement and that nothing actually changed. Villains don't exactly have a good track record for judging the extent of Super Saiyan increases, like when Gero treated Goku's power up as just a minor inconvenience, or Babidi thinking little to nothing over Goku's SSJ stages. Their intent is to rip the heroes heads off, not be a compass for powerscalers.

Actually it said that "according to some sources, the form boosts a user's power as much as 50 times!!" rather than saying so definitively. So the 2.5x multiplier implied by Rild still works. Gero's calculations are shown again and again to be inaccurate and he admitted a few pages later that #19 was getting beaten so bad his energy would run out before Goku's at this rate, so he was just bluffing. Rild had no reason to talk out of his ass here. It's established that Babidi cannot sense Ki as well when only Super Boo could detect them at the Kami palace, and not Fat Boo or Babidi.

This power judging talking point doesn't seem like it's leading anywhere. I'm not claiming that a power judgement is incapable of being wrong. And given that Goku could pinpoint Gohan's hidden power during the Cell era, and could precisely judge his major inferiority to Super Buu, it wouldn't be logical to think that strength judgements can't be right without being corrected in some way. Whether or not Vegito was thought about doesn't matter. Super Saiyan increases can easily be calculated, and Vegito doesn't appear to be as impressive as you paint him when properly scaled.

They can compare Ki sizes, but they've been shown to have trouble properly fathoming a person's true fighting prowess without fighting them first. Even in relatively equal playing fields, most characters can't seem to accurately judge someone's power until they've fought directly, as seen in the 22nd Budokai and every arc after.

That background information doesn't do anything since Goku wasn't directly compared. So at most, you're arguing on the grounds of assumption, so our disagreement remains. You're kind of looping with the hypothetical Vegito stuff; I'd prefer for you not to strawman me about it again.

Something that we should dig into is what you said earlier about characters and guidebooks not taking hypothetical forms into account. Unless you misspoke, wouldn't that mean you're arguing SSJ Vegito >= SSJ4 Goku? If so, then we can't let that slide. This needs to be unravelled.

It isn't strawmanning. We're talking about if Baby Vegeta counted Vegetto's unseen forms as powers he surpassed even though Vegetto has ceased to exist 16 years prior and did not enter the forms in the first place, and that's highly unnecessary when Vegetto never even revealed SSJ2 and SSJ3. And considering Kefla for instance had trouble fathoming her true increase in power in the anime and had to test it out, I don't think Vegeta or Goku would be completely privy to unused advanced stages of a power they only held for a short time.

The anime comics statement is accompanied by a screenshot of base Vegetto, which it clearly wouldnt be talking about in comparison to SSJ4 Goku. It's anyone's guess as to whether it's Vegetto's unseen maximum or his base/SSJ forms that they're talking about, but they only said "Vegetto" in general, not "Potara" or "Super Vegetto." I don't think they're talking about GT Vegetto, so it'd just be Z Vegetto. Likely SSJ Vegetto, but they left room for interpretation.

 

[SIAD]

I don't take the statement of that DBGT comic very seriously, because if I don't remember badly, it said that Vegetto was the fusion of the 2 greatest Warriors and their fusion could be superior to SSJ4.

The contradiction in that statement is that at the time Vegetto was born, Gohan was vastly more powerful than both Goku and Vegeta. Therefore the statement Vegetto > SSJ4 I don't take very seriously.

I have Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo) between Goku SSJ4 (Initial) and SBV2.

 

[Spiral-Force]

Actually it said that "according to some sources, the form boosts a user's power as much as 50 times!!" rather than saying so definitively. So the 2.5x multiplier implied by Rild still works. Gero's calculations are shown again and again to be inaccurate and he admitted a few pages later that #19 was getting beaten so bad his energy would run out before Goku's at this rate, so he was just bluffing. Rild had no reason to talk out of his ass here. It's established that Babidi cannot sense Ki as well when only Super Boo could detect them at the Kami palace, and not Fat Boo or Babidi.

The direct excerpt is "One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally".

But even the one you dug out is suitable to serve my point too, so getting into semantics wouldn't help you in any meaningful way. What actually holds importance is that it was referenced at all in the first place, and that no alternative 'theory' was even worth mentioning.

It looks like you basically agree that villains reactions to Super Saiyan transformations generally shouldn't be relied on since inaccuracies or bias can occur. Not saying that means Rilldo was deliberately lying, but that you should pay attention to where the statement is coming from. In Rilldo's case particularly, I still stand by the notion that it was an understatement. Something that happens in practically every work of fiction since no writer is perfect. I'll take what the official sources have to say over a single and vague villain statement.

You seem to at least acknowledge that your reduction theory can be argued otherwise, as opposed to just boldly treating it like a fact. So there's some progress there. We can go back and forth with rhetoric, but what hasn't already been covered at this point?

They can compare Ki sizes, but they've been shown to have trouble properly fathoming a person's true fighting prowess without fighting them first. Even in relatively equal playing fields, most characters can't seem to accurately judge someone's power until they've fought directly, as seen in the 22nd Budokai and every arc after.

The issue is that you tend to laser in on smaller aspects of a point instead of the central factor.

I acknowledge that there are cases in the series where power isn't always gauged properly right off the bat. Though I also acknowledge that there are cases where they get it on the mark initially.

You may or may not agree with the latter, but you seem to be steering away from whatever your main point was.

How does this affect how Vegito can be scaled?

It isn't strawmanning. We're talking about if Baby Vegeta counted Vegetto's unseen forms as powers he surpassed even though Vegetto has ceased to exist 16 years prior and did not enter the forms in the first place, and that's highly unnecessary when Vegetto never even revealed SSJ2 and SSJ3. And considering Kefla for instance had trouble fathoming her true increase in power in the anime and had to test it out, I don't think Vegeta or Goku would be completely privy to unused advanced stages of a power they only held for a short time.

What you're arguing against was never my premise. Whether Baby thought of him or not isn't my concern. Baby is said to be the greatest, and nothing directly contradicts him at the time it was said. There's also no objective reason to scale Vegito above the Goku that Base Baby took care of.

The anime comics statement is accompanied by a screenshot of base Vegetto, which it clearly wouldnt be talking about in comparison to SSJ4 Goku. It's anyone's guess as to whether it's Vegetto's unseen maximum or his base/SSJ forms that they're talking about, but they only said "Vegetto" in general, not "Potara" or "Super Vegetto." I don't think they're talking about GT Vegetto, so it'd just be Z Vegetto. Likely SSJ Vegetto, but they left room for interpretation.

This just seems messy. You say it clearly wouldn't be talking about his base power, and earlier on you said hypothetical forms aren't taken into account, so why is SSJ Vegito only 'likely' to you and not a solid answer?

The most significant aspect of the quote is that it doesn't confirm anything. Something perhaps being true also means that it's perhaps NOT true as well. If there's anything to grasp from all of this, it's that Vegito is overhyped based on -- at the very most -- arguable data. Do you not see that?

 

[Papasmurf]

The direct excerpt is "One theory is that it becomes as much as 50 times what it is normally".

But even the one you dug out is suitable to serve my point too, so getting into semantics wouldn't help you in any meaningful way. What actually holds importance is that it was referenced at all in the first place, and that no alternative 'theory' was even worth mentioning.

The fact that it uses the word theory while the SEG and Daizenshuu/chozenshuu officially have it as 50x (and 100x for SSJ2 and 400x for SSJ3) shows that the Perfect Files don't treat the 50x multiplier as concrete as those previous guides.

You seem to at least acknowledge that your reduction theory can be argued otherwise, as opposed to just boldly treating it like a fact. So there's some progress there. We can go back and forth with rhetoric, but what hasn't already been covered at this point?

We can dismiss the multiplier debate then, though the fact that the series is usually particular about using "many times" or "tens of times" as specific increases over the base amount and Rild openly says Goku was using less than 50% of his SSJ power in base tells me the power up is much less great than the one we saw in Z. Especially since less than half is the same wording #17 used to describe his previous power when trouncing Future gohan.

The issue is that you tend to laser in on smaller aspects of a point instead of the central factor.

I acknowledge that there are cases in the series where power isn't always gauged properly right off the bat. Though I also acknowledge that there are cases where they get it on the mark initially.

You may or may not agree with the latter, but you seem to be steering away from whatever your main point was.

How does this affect how Vegito can be scaled?

It shows that Vegeta is too far off from Boo arc top tiers to even be able to guage Kid Boo's power and strength, much less SSJ Vegetto and Gohan-Boo and let alone Vegetto's unused forms.

What you're arguing against was never my premise. Whether Baby thought of him or not isn't my concern. Baby is said to be the greatest, and nothing directly contradicts him at the time it was said. There's also no objective reason to scale Vegito above the Goku that Base Baby took care of.

This just seems messy. You say it clearly wouldn't be talking about his base power, and earlier on you said hypothetical forms aren't taken into account, so why is SSJ Vegito only 'likely' to you and not a solid answer?

SSJ Vegetto is likely to me because it was the form Vegettto fought in the most in the anime (his base self being relegated to a single episode) and the only fighting he did in the manga. Since we never saw SSJ2 and SSJ3 versions of Vegetto, that'd be the Vegetto people would most likely think up when his Boo arc feats are counted. Obviously I didn't write the entry so that's just a hypothesis.

The most significant aspect of the quote is that it doesn't confirm anything. Something perhaps being true also means that it's perhaps NOT true as well. If there's anything to grasp from all of this, it's that Vegito is overhyped based on -- at the very most -- arguable data. Do you not see that?

If he is "perhaps" above SSJ4 he's definitely not below it, since "perhaps greater than __" is the same wording Piccolo used to describe SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (who he thought was seemingly above SSJ2 Kid Gohan), who definitely isn't below Gohan. And these writers are ones employed by Toei and Shueisha, and GT has no central author like Toriyama or Toyotaro meaning unless guidebook statements openly contradict the soure material, they are as factual as Lord Slug being above an unspecified form of Freeza in Movie 4.

 

[SIAD]

It could mean this:


Goku SSJ4 (Initial) >>> Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo) > Goku SSJ4 (Initial / Suppressed) >= SBV2.

Goku SSJ4 (Initial/Suppressed) is when he was in SBV2 level.

 

[Papasmurf]

That doesn't sound likely since in the same episode SSJ4 Goku could tank Baby's RDB as soon as he got serious. The entry was written after SSJ4 reached its full power against Oozaru Baby too.

 

[Boo Brand Milk]

With pre-kid buu or post?

 

[SIAD]

But even so, it doesn't make much sense to say that Vegetto's fusion was born as a result of the fusion of the 2 greatest Warriors, when at the time Vegetto was born, Gohan was much more powerful than Goku and Vegeta.

We also have Goku Base (Arc Super #17) rocking the entire Otherworld and effortlessly. A far superior feat to Gohan Boo (Enraged) and Vegetto SSJ. So mathematically speaking, Vegetto SSJ3 (Boo) should be less than 8x Goku Base (Arc Super #17).

 

[Spiral-Force]

The fact that it uses the word theory while the SEG and Daizenshuu/chozenshuu officially have it as 50x (and 100x for SSJ2 and 400x for SSJ3) shows that the Perfect Files don't treat the 50x multiplier as concrete as those previous guides.

Not as concrete, yes, but a viable system to adopt above all others by the looks of it.

We can dismiss the multiplier debate then, though the fact that the series is usually particular about using "many times" or "tens of times" as specific increases over the base amount and Rild openly says Goku was using less than 50% of his SSJ power in base tells me the power up is much less great than the one we saw in Z. Especially since less than half is the same wording #17 used to describe his previous power when trouncing Future gohan.

The statement ought to be viewed through a critical lens due to what we know has been established of SSJ values, time and time again. If you want to just take it at face value, that choice is yours, but do you have any reasoning outside of doing that?

The very nature of reduction brings purpose into question, such as, why even go that route and if there are any in-series reasons why that would happen?

GT seems content with using Z's formula of just showcasing beings and fights with immense power, with continuous strength gains from Goku and other important characters.

It shows that Vegeta is too far off from Boo arc top tiers to even be able to guage Kid Boo's power and strength, much less SSJ Vegetto and Gohan-Boo and let alone Vegetto's unused forms.

I don't think Vegeta's words necessarily exemplify your conclusion, because there didn't appear to be any part where he wasn't aware that Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku were in a different league than him. Vegito was also considered as an option for fighting Kid Buu at one point of the dialogue.

SSJ Vegetto is likely to me because it was the form Vegettto fought in the most in the anime (his base self being relegated to a single episode) and the only fighting he did in the manga. Since we never saw SSJ2 and SSJ3 versions of Vegetto, that'd be the Vegetto people would most likely think up when his Boo arc feats are counted. Obviously I didn't write the entry so that's just a hypothesis.

It seems you didn't quite get why I asked, but don't worry about it. I've given my own take on this prior, so I guess we can terminate this part of the convo.

If he is "perhaps" above SSJ4 he's definitely not below it, since "perhaps greater than __" is the same wording Piccolo used to describe SSJ2 Majin Vegeta (who he thought was seemingly above SSJ2 Kid Gohan), who definitely isn't below Gohan. And these writers are ones employed by Toei and Shueisha, and GT has no central author like Toriyama or Toyotaro meaning unless guidebook statements openly contradict the soure material, they are as factual as Lord Slug being above an unspecified form of Freeza in Movie 4.

Drawing from linguistic similarities isn't a bad thing, but surrounding context is also important. Vegeta proved he belongs in that tier from his fight with Goku, while Z Vegito is untested against anyone above Buu level.

 

[Papasmurf]

Not as concrete, yes, but a viable system to adopt above all others by the looks of it.

It's just a nod to the previously established Daizenshuu multiplier. The SEG copies a lot of information from the Daizenshuu such as the currently highest form (SSJ3 in the case of the manga-oriented Daizenshuu, SSJ4 in GT PF) being a form that draws out a Saiyan's power to the utmost limits as well as Gotenks being listed among the users of SSJ2.

The statement ought to be viewed through a critical lens due to what we know has been established of SSJ values, time and time again. If you want to just take it at face value, that choice is yours, but do you have any reasoning outside of doing that?

We have examples of previously potent power ups becoming redundant such as Saiyan zenkais. Since there is no proof for the GT SSJ multiplier being 50x outside of a statement in the guidebook that credits "some theory" as a source for the 50x multiplier, and "not even half your power" is a less extravagant claim than even Nail citing Piccolo's power rising by multiple folds after merging, there is no in-universe foundation for the multiplier being half of a hundred times.

The very nature of reduction brings purpose into question, such as, why even go that route and if there are any in-series reasons why that would happen?

Because potential unlocks such as the Ultra God Water (Choshinsui) and the Saichorou power ups, as well as the aforementioned zenkais became inefficient over time. SSJ forms are basically potential unlocks of varying degrees.

I don't think Vegeta's words necessarily exemplify your conclusion, because there didn't appear to be any part where he wasn't aware that Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku were in a different league than him. Vegito was also considered as an option for fighting Kid Buu at one point of the dialogue.

He was shocked when he actually fought Kid Boo, even though he saw him fight Goku in earnest and even fire off a full power Kamehameha. It's a good example that shows considerably weaker characters can't properly fathom a stronger character's power and speed. Take everyone who was watching Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan being shocked that Cell was utterly helpless, even though they had just felt Cell's full power up close, for another example. So Vegeta wouldn't be the best judge of Gohan-Boo's power, much less forms of Vegetto that are stronger than the SSJ form he used to stomp him.

Drawing from linguistic similarities isn't a bad thing, but surrounding context is also important. Vegeta proved he belongs in that tier from his fight with Goku, while Z Vegito is untested against anyone above Buu level.

Z Vegetto was never forced to get serious outside of a filler scene where Gohan-Boo nearly blew up the universe, and that was in his lowest transformation. And again, Z Vegetto was a very tertiary existence who ceased to be accessible after the Boo arc, so the "strongest Saiya power" statement needn't apply to him. There are various examples of characters who are aware of higher powers that existed before calling themselves the strongest, such as Super Boo intending to finish off Gohan while Gotenks is fused inside him to secure his position as the strongest, even though Piccolo-Boo is far weaker than Gohan was, as well as weaker than his previous Buff Boo form. Vegetto being a non-factor here similarly works well, especially when we have it straight out of Toei's own mouth that Vegetto's power is as great or perhaps greater than SSJ4 Goku.

 

[Spiral-Force]

It's just a nod to the previously established Daizenshuu multiplier. The SEG copies a lot of information from the Daizenshuu such as the currently highest form (SSJ3 in the case of the manga-oriented Daizenshuu, SSJ4 in GT PF) being a form that draws out a Saiyan's power to the utmost limits as well as Gotenks being listed among the users of SSJ2.

GT is a continuation of Z's storyline, so it makes sense that the GT PF retains a lot of information from other official sources. Don't see how this counters anything.

We have examples of previously potent power ups becoming redundant such as Saiyan zenkais. Since there is no proof for the GT SSJ multiplier being 50x outside of a statement in the guidebook that credits "some theory" as a source for the 50x multiplier, and "not even half your power" is a less extravagant claim than even Nail citing Piccolo's power rising by multiple folds after merging, there is no in-universe foundation for the multiplier being half of a hundred times.

- Zenkais were never assigned a multiplier value, so that's a false equivalency.

- Considering the guidebook makes no mention of any other theory, you can't exactly belittle the one value that was significant enough to be brought up.

- Why does there need to be an in-universe explanation for something that would be the default line of thinking? Did Z ever have characters discuss Super Saiyan multipliers? These elements are unnecessary.

Because potential unlocks such as the Ultra God Water (Choshinsui) and the Saichorou power ups, as well as the aforementioned zenkais became inefficient over time. SSJ forms are basically potential unlocks of varying degrees.

You seem to be satisfied with just firing off a bunch of references and hoping something sticks. This isn't a meaningful comparison when SSJ1, 2, and 3 have fixed values of increase.

He was shocked when he actually fought Kid Boo, even though he saw him fight Goku in earnest and even fire off a full power Kamehameha. It's a good example that shows considerably weaker characters can't properly fathom a stronger character's power and speed. Take everyone who was watching Cell vs. SSJ2 Gohan being shocked that Cell was utterly helpless, even though they had just felt Cell's full power up close, for another example. So Vegeta wouldn't be the best judge of Gohan-Boo's power, much less forms of Vegetto that are stronger than the SSJ form he used to stomp him.

What relevance does this hold to your overall argument? If you can't answer that, then that's very telling...

Of course they'd be shocked that Cell was getting pounded. He was an imposing presence for such a long time in the arc, and even in the Goku fight, there was still a sense that Cell was always a step ahead. The turn of events as a whole is what's shocking (i.e. Gohan's SSJ2 transformation and Cell finally being backed into a corner). The shock just lingered on for a while, which is expected in such a wild circumstance.

Now, back to Kid Buu. Would've it have been better if Vegeta just stayed silent while getting his ass whooped? Acknowledging the opponent's power in a challenging fight is quite normal in this show. From your perspective, what would Vegeta need to have done to convince you that he's aware of Kid Buu's power?

Z Vegetto was never forced to get serious outside of a filler scene where Gohan-Boo nearly blew up the universe, and that was in his lowest transformation. And again, Z Vegetto was a very tertiary existence who ceased to be accessible after the Boo arc, so the "strongest Saiya power" statement needn't apply to him. There are various examples of characters who are aware of higher powers that existed before calling themselves the strongest, such as Super Boo intending to finish off Gohan while Gotenks is fused inside him to secure his position as the strongest, even though Piccolo-Boo is far weaker than Gohan was, as well as weaker than his previous Buff Boo form. Vegetto being a non-factor here similarly works well, especially when we have it straight out of Toei's own mouth that Vegetto's power is as great or perhaps greater than SSJ4 Goku.

The problem here is that you're not making a precise counter. Saying something "needn't apply" isn't saying much. You haven't presented an objective reason to discredit the literality of Baby's statement. Your Super Buu example is yet again another instance of comparing something that has a totally different context, such as our knowledge that Gohan > Super Buu (Piccolo absorbed), while the Vegito & SSJ4 comparison is questionable for two main reasons. The first being that Base Vegito didn't do anything that Baby Arc Base Goku couldn't replicate in terms of power, which should remain the case in their higher forms as well. And the second being that the SSJ4 comparison is open for interpretation and doesn't confirm anything.

 

[Dagon]

Goku said Baby Vegeta Strongest Form 1 was the greatest ki he ever felt, so that should include SSJ Vegetto at least. Strongest Form 2 Baby Vegeta should at least come close if not surpass SSJ3 Vegetto. Golden Oozaru Goku most likely, and SSJ4 Goku and onwards most definitely.

 

[Emmeth]

I would say General Rilldo. Assuming GT follows the anime power level scaling Goku does say that Rilldo has greatest chi than even Boo (assume he's talking about Chibi here since he's the strongest Boo in the anime).