Yardrat Goku vs Sick Goku

[GreatSaiyaman123]

GS, 19 Post should be somewhere close to Sick Goku.

Because it doesn't seem implied. It seems that 19 got boosted up near Goku's level, Goku dropped a bit but not close to where 19 previously was.

Why though? Gero is glad by both the fact 19 powered up and Goku got weaker. I don't see a reason for him to highlight Goku's power loss if 19's power up was enough to cover the gap.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”

Not to mention that further weakened Sick Goku wasn't actually doing terrible and at least dodged a couple blows and landed a shot before he perished due to the virus.

 

[p123]

It comes down to interpretation... But this is how I see it. Look over the sequences and see if you agree.

1) Sick Goku is stronger than 19 clearly, but he's also a good deal stronger than 20. 20 looks in awe of Goku's power.
2) 19 absorbs the Kamehameha, Goku loses power. I don't get the sense that it's a tremendous shift, my numbers reflect the scenario quite well I believe. Goku is at distant rivaling range, perhaps a little behind that and 19 is more or less caught up with Goku, but not quite there just yet. 20 is jealous of 19's power.

Sick Goku 750
19 Post 700
Sicker Goku 600
20 Pre 550
19 Pre 500

I have it like that, I think it reflects the situation well.

You can't really have Sick Goku 10x stronger than 19, although 19 is severely outclassed, it probably doesn't warrant more than a 1.5x gap because the fight would be over quite quickly.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

20 never showed any feelings towards 19's new power though other than hapiness by it surpassing Goku. I think 20 would have noted if 19 surpassed him by a considerable margin. 20 still acts as he's the superior droid, indepedent of how hard it is to pull of the numbers.

It doesn't matter how big the gap is between Sick Goku and Android 19 because Goku could barely fly distances Tenshinhan could without getting winded, his punches clearly wouldn't be as hard as they should be if his stamina is so poor.

 

[Victorious]

#19 pre is more than 66% of Goku IMO, more like 80%. Anyway, all Goku needs is a 20% decrease in power and #19 a 20% increase with the KHH and we have a total reversal in the fight. I do view #19 post KHH and post base Goku slightly higher than initial sick SSJ Goku. Healthy Goku's power is stated to be 'much more stupendous' than Initial sick Goku so there's no reason to think SSJ Vegeta wouldn't fodderize him like he did #19 post.

 

[Victorious]

I never felt #20 was a 'superior' droid to #19. He's on an equal footing power wise and just is a proper droid who obeys the commands of his maker. Unlike the other malfunctioning Andoids. #19 post Goku fight is definitely well above #20 IMO. Now #20 after he absorbed Vegeta's blast and suppressed Piccolo hard to say.

 

[p123]

@GS

Gero seems to get a little snippy with 19 when 19 requests to fight Vegeta. Gero tells him "You are so greedy."
How strong is 19 Post compared to Sick Goku?

@Vic

20 may be pretty close to Goku, but it becomes very hard numerically to make it work. Can you give an example numerically of what you think?

(Goku > 19) > (Piccolo > Gero) > (Goku > 19)

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@P Far weaker. Theorically Sick Goku could wreck Future Trunks, a feat 19 couldn't perform according to Vegeta.

 

[p123]

Doesn't that come down to your interpretation of how Vegeta perceives Piccolo's regurgitation of what Trunks said? I don't think merely being able to whoop Trunks is the standard bearer here. Shouldn't Yardrat Goku have no chance in hell against these Androids? So much so that he has to train for 3 years straight just to have a fighting chance?

I don't think powers 1.33x Trunks (Trunks Saga) constitute "The rumors not being true".

I also think 19 Post has had to have caught up to Sick Goku, it's not like 19 Pre is all that terribly being Sick Goku in the first place. We see some dramatic feats, but Goku still has to work pretty decently. I'm guessing you think Goku's stamina issues make him fight much worse than his ki would suggest? I don't know if I can go with that without a character statement suggesting it to be the case. Something like "Goku is so much stronger, but his punches don't have any bite on them". Or something of that nature. Instead we are treated with "That damn android is taking a beating, but because he's a robot he can continue on."

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

We were not shown what Piccolo told everyone, but it's likely he said the same things Trunks said. Here are the rumors about the Androids:

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P2.3
Trunks: “3 years from this current era, on May 12th around 10:00 AM, a terrifying pair will appear on an island 9 kilometers to the southwest of South City…Monsters with tremendous power unlike anything in this world…”

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

According to the rumors they were beasts, they could absolutely wreck Trunks even if it's 1v1. The Z Fighters knew the floor of what the androids could be, at the very least they are above Trunks. They expected something between Yardrat Goku to > Android Goku. Here is what Vegeta said about 19:

Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.4
Vegeta: “I’ve realized by watching your faint movements up to now…That you guys don’t seem as terrible as the rumors made out.”

To Vegeta, 19 isn't as strong as the rumors. He doesn't even get to be Yardrat Goku level, he is completely out of the Expected Androids tier. 19 likely is still around Trunks though, considering both Vegeta's statement not putting him lower (He says 19 isn't as fearsome as the rumors, but doesn't deny he's fearsome or call him trash) and his durability feats. I think if 19 could stomp Trunks, Vegeta's coment would be similar to Piccolo's on 20:

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.2-3
Piccolo: “It seems that in the original history, we were supposed to be wiped out by you two androids…But it looks like the future has changed somehow…Was it that you weren’t as strong as we thought?...Or have we grown too strong?...

Piccolo admited 20 was up to the rumors ("Have we grown too strong?") but 20 is like the bottom tier of the expected androids. Vegeta would have said something similar if 19 was as strong as Yardrat or Sick Goku.

It was actually suggested Sick Goku's stamina was affecting his perfomance. Tenshinhan noted he was really out of breath after flying to the island:
Chapter 340 (DBZ 146), P7.5
Context: after Goku and co. fly to an uninhabited location
Tenshinhan: “Wh-what’s going on? Son’s out of breath…He merely flew here, so why…?”

So obviously those stamina issues should carry to Super Saiyan and even get worse, considering how the Super Saiyan puts strain on the body according to Vegeta:

 

[p123]

1) I think your assumption that the Androids possibly being Yardrat Goku level is wrong. The expected Androids have to be stronger than Yardrat Goku by a good margin. Yardrat Goku's power only gives Trunks a little hope.

What I do see is this...

Expected Androids (Lower End) ~ 20 Post > 19 Post = Not Reaching Expected Android Level

Expected Androids >> Yardrat Goku


2) Your ki power is your ki power. Your stamina will drain your ki power. If your power is 10k whether you are breathing hard or not, it will still be 10k. Your punch will still be at equal force. If it wasn't, your power wouldn't be 10k anymore.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

1) That's why i said it's the bare minimum the androids could be. Still somewhat stronger than Trunks, can probably stomp him if he tries, but oddly it's the best he can do.

2) By this logic, pulling your punches would low your BP. It's a issue related to effort, not Ki.

 

[p123]

The bare minimum of Android level should stomp Yardrat Goku.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

No because all Trunks said is that the androids could stomp him. He gives no comparison between the androids and Goku.

 

[p123]

He said Goku gives him a little hope. Surely he would be very hopeful if he thought Goku could beat the Androids already. Even with giving Goku the cure for his disease, seeing his impressive power and getting his ready to train his ass off for three straight years, Trunks still only has a little hope. Doesn't that tell you how massively superior the Androids are?

 

[Kyo]

He also thinks Goku should be scared and Goku admits that he is

 

[p123]

Very nice. So with all of that GS, I think we've disproven this idea that 19/20 have to be close to Trunks. I've always heard about this for a long time, finally we can put this to rest. Do you agree GS?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It indeed seems very likely. The rumors are that the androids are >> Goku and Trunks. If they can only stomp Trunks then they're quite below the rumors. Sick Goku level is still putting 19 on the rumors though.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

P, do you think a 120 would be a monster to a 100? What are some examples of 1.2x gaps?

 

[ahill1]

It was said #19 wasn't as terrible as the rumors made him out to be. Whilst he could still be above Trunks and fit the statement, he doesn't need to be above or all that much above Trunks. He can be = and everything would still work.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah i'm still wondering if i have 19 = or > Trunks. Having him stronger makes things tight as fuck.