Z Sword Gohan

Fantastische Hure

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Southern Gothic said:
Fantastische Hure said:
Southern Gothic said:
I do agree that Goku > Z sword Gohan.
get the chainsaw :mad: :mad: :mad:
I just read it the other day. And that's what the Lord said to me at the time. But I can't give Gohan that much cred, l0l. I still put him on par with SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta. :p
gohan is weaker than majin boo, but stronger than goku :mad: :mad: :mad:
 

kriss-

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Way to go Toriyama, for shoving it in fan's faces! I'm actually kind of happy he said that.

@The_Authority
The fans want black and white answers to everything. The thing is it's not black and white, it's grey.

If nothing contradicts it than here is no reason it shouldn't be true. Tangible statements from the Manga were never actually that, they could be twisted and molded to suite new ideas -because at the end of the day there are no direct statements that say whose greater than who. Even with the few we're given (like Super Boo being greater than Goku) can be looked at differently due to Boo's Chi being a lie and still under the influence of the Kaioshins; hence the terminology 'Pure Boo' -aka no influences. Thus, Goku can now determine whose greater than who.

Back to topic, there is nothing to determine whether or not Gohan increased his Chi in proportion to his muscle strength. If something were to state this than we can definitely place him above Goku as his lifting feat suggested. However, I just haven't seen any significant compelling evidence to support such a notion.
 

Southern Gothic

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Fantastische Hure said:
Southern Gothic said:
Fantastische Hure said:
get the chainsaw :mad: :mad: :mad:
I just read it the other day. And that's what the Lord said to me at the time. But I can't give Gohan that much cred, l0l. I still put him on par with SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta. :p
gohan is weaker than majin boo, but stronger than goku :mad: :mad: :mad:
Well, we might have a difference of opinion there, sir. :nice
 

FutureProtagonist

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Way to go Toriyama, for shoving it in fan's faces! I'm actually kind of happy he said that.
Gohan being #1 would have been shoving it in the fan's faces. Goku being retconned to #1 is playing it safe, just like making Goku the hero at the end of the Boo Arc was. It's just lazy writing; if he had followed through on his promise of Gohan being the hero, the Boo Arc would have been greatly superior. He would have had to make his characters change! Wouldn't that have been fantastic?

DB writers just can't handle character development, hence why Vegeta has regressed to his pre-Majin attitude in Super.

Anything fans make up to explain away black and white statements like "we can't beat Boo" or "if only we could fuse, then we could beat Boo", doesn't mean much when we've got Toriyama saying he doesn't care what happens in the manga, and Super can have whatever he wants because he's the author.

Boo's ki being like a lie has nothing to do with his current power (whatever that may be) being difficult to sense. It's the tendency he has to explosively increase in power for no reason (i.e. you can't tell when he's using full power). There is no way that Goku could mistake Super Boo's power for being greater than it really is, only the other way around (hence why Piccolo thought base Gotenks could win, hence why Dabra thought he could beat Boo, hence why Vegeta thought Boo was trash, hence why Goku can say he might not win against Fat Boo).

Which is more likely?
-Nonsense explanations that attempt to invalidate uncontradicted, black and white statements inexplicably became true.
-Toriyama decided that Gohan is too difficult to use as a character, so he was made irrelevant. (This has happened before)

Boo Arc Vegeta was too difficult to use as well, but you can't have DBZ without Vegeta, so we just decided that he had never changed in the first place.
 

Fantastische Hure

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Southern Gothic said:
Fantastische Hure said:
Southern Gothic said:
I just read it the other day. And that's what the Lord said to me at the time. But I can't give Gohan that much cred, l0l. I still put him on par with SSJ2 Goku/Vegeta. :p
gohan is weaker than majin boo, but stronger than goku :mad: :mad: :mad:
Well, we might have a difference of opinion there, sir. :nice
then we can agree to disagree :nice :nice :nice
 

kriss-

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Gohan being the #1 strongest is self preference on your end, nothing ever suggests it has to be so. Everything from recent material actually suggests the opposite. Regardless of whether or not that would 'impress you' is just personal preference and nothing more.

Boo's Chi being a lie means that he cannot sense it or place it on a scale. Toriyama has also stated in an interview that Majin Boo doesn't know how strong he is himself. This ties in line with the logic of his being a lie and if Boo cannot determine how powerful he actually is, than neither can Goku by default. The reason of all said examples that you provided can be explained perfectly with this reasoning.

Uncontradicted statements that aren't actually proven at the end of the day hold no relevency over the authors current intentions and statements that 'confirm' things as opposed to statements that rely heavily on speculation. Nothing in the Boo Saga is ever proven that contradicts what Vegeta has said in Dragonball Super.
 

Southern Gothic

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h0kuten said:
Gohan being the #1 strongest is self preference on your end, nothing ever suggests it has to be so. Everything from recent material actually suggests the opposite. Regardless of whether or not that would 'impress you' is just personal preference and nothing more.

Boo's Chi being a lie means that he cannot sense it or place it on a scale. Toriyama has also stated in an interview that Majin Boo doesn't know how strong he is himself. This ties in line with the logic of his being a lie and if Boo cannot determine how powerful he actually is, than neither can Goku by default. The reason of all said examples that you provided can be explained perfectly with this reasoning.

Uncontradicted statements that aren't actually proven at the end of the day hold no relevency over the authors current intentions and statements that 'confirm' things as opposed to statements that rely heavily on speculation. Nothing in the Boo Saga is ever proven that contradicts what Vegeta has said in Dragonball Super.
Granted, I agree about Goku being stronger here, but why does he have to be stronger at this exact moment? There are still some fights to come. So hypothetically, if Gohan were stronger while using the Z sword, what does it matter, as long as Goku becomes number one again by the end of the saga?
 

kriss-

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I was talking about the good ol' Goku Ssj3 & Ultimate Gohan comparison.

On topic, I'm not sure what to do with Z-Sword Gohan. There isn't any evidence suggesting he grew 'overall' more powerful than before as opposed to just increasing his muscle strength.
 

FutureProtagonist

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current intentions and statements
Current being the operative word.

Consistency doesn't matter to Toriyama, thus nothing can be assumed consistent. Sorry.

I don't care how strong Gohan is. I really don't; I don't care that Goku is stronger than him now. My beef is simply with how safe and simple everything has become. Gohan being #1, while a superficial, meaningless detail, would have at least been true to the manga and it would have pissed off a lot of Goku fans. Telling a coherent story should hold an immeasurably higher priority over pleasing fans. That would have been a bold move. It would have shown that Toriyama actually cares about the world he's created; Super doesn't care about the world of DBZ, it cares about pandering to fans so it can make a pile of money. That's my problem with Super.
Toriyama has also stated in an interview that Majin Boo doesn't know how strong he is himself.
Doesn't mean what you're saying. You can tell how strong Boo is at any current time how strong he is by sensing his ki/looking at his movements/analyzing his battles. You just don't know if it'll shoot up when he gets angry. Boo doesn't know the upper limit of his strength, but at any point in time, you can say how much power he's using and so can he. Just that no one can tell whether it's his full power.
 

Pyro

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FutureProtagonist said:
Toriyama has explicitly... well, more or less... stated in "Volume F" that he doesn't have to stick with consistency if he doesn't want to, because he's the author.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=27729&start=26420#p923038

http://dbzeta.net/single/?p=8277090&t=10668767

That about sums up my feelings on using DB Super as evidence for manga battle powers.

It's also ridiculously hypocritical to justify beliefs you've held for years using evidence that came in the past few months.
Pretty much this. I don't abide by a single thing Super says or does when it comes to discussing the DB manga, because Super doesn't consider it either. Super is its own thing now.

As for the topic, Gohan pre-sword <<< Gohan post-sword. It's a little blurrier than other comparisons but it can be made.
 

Southern Gothic

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h0kuten said:
I was talking about the good ol' Goku Ssj3 & Ultimate Gohan comparison.

On topic, I'm not sure what to do with Z-Sword Gohan. There isn't any evidence suggesting he grew 'overall' more powerful than before as opposed to just increasing his muscle strength.
Well that's fine. Personally I have to allow for some growth, otherwise there is no deception when Goku considers a fight against Majin Boo. Goku is unsure about it. If this were the same Gohan who fought Dabra, Goku would say he doesn't have a chance.

But instead, he is left undecided. So I have to allow for enough of an increase to make him seem slightly different. Maybe 10-20%.
 

kriss-

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The current implications build off the logic Toriyama previously established. Having re-read the original Japanese Manga Toriyama clearly, still conforms to those specific ideas. Regardless of whether or not Toriyama conforms to consistency his word is the final authority; consistent or not. The fact that such implications do exist only begs that the reader alter his previous perceptions of the Mangas implications -which do not contradict anything that was already stated.

I'm sure if you told Toriyama that he was only in it for the money, I'm pretty certain he would tell you where to go. As an aspiring author myself, I can definitely see as to why. It's his work and his work only, our job is to make everything mesh and flow together appropriately.

It's clear from Toriyama's perspective and Majin Boo's as well as Goku's, that Boo's Chi cannot be appropriately determined.

Summarily, everybody is jumping to conclusions to make Gohan out to be stronger than he actually was, then Goku comes into the picture and literally shits on their false hope.
 

kriss-

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I'm thinking of having Gohan's 'Ultimate' form 4x his Z-Sword self.
 

Dragon15

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h0kuten said:
I'm thinking of having Gohan's 'Ultimate' form 4x his Z-Sword self.
So gohan ultimate is stronger than Goku.
After all, gohan z sword ssj2 > Goku ssj2
And ssj3 is 4x ssj2 too.
So gohan ultimate > Goku ssj3.
 

kriss-

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Nah,

I've still got Goku Ssj2 superior to Z-Sword Gohan.
 

kriss-

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Toriyama: Muscle strength has limits. Once you hit those limits you need to increase your Chi to get stronger.

Z-Sword Gohan: My muscle are a-lot stronger.

He never says anything about Chi.
 

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