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This is Jiren from 109 - 110, even though the scene is from Base Vegeta, we have seen how characters in inferior forms or suppressed state can watch and perceive things such as Gohan considering Goku and Cell fight not that much impressive or Vegeta himself with Dabura and Gohan. What do you...

Is there any in-universe explanation?

From the Buu Saga and above, how are your takes on this? Do you believe it refers to SSJ in general terms or just the simple SSJ we all know? For example: In the Buu Saga, Old Kaioshin talk about the stress SSJ produces to the body, and Goku asked if it's not better to transform into SSJ...

Because Gohan doesn't emit a strong prescence. When characters have a hard time sensing others is because they don't emit that powerful of a prescence which is portrayed with Bulma or Dende.

Actually you're purposing a rational logic. As a contradicted statement can simply remain contradicted. Vegeta is far ahead of 3rd form Freeza as he could see Initial True Form Freeza attacks while nobody else could do and 3rd form Freeza's attacks were able to be seen by anyone. Even though...

Gogeta in SSJ is enough.

For example: Example A: Someone sees a character lost badly and they thought they could beat that someone. Then it is proven wrong, but for that to be right they would be thinking they're stronger than that character or at least can rival to an extent Example B: Someone sees a character lost...

Well, she always had cold eyes. In her mind, Mighty Mask is just an extraordinary human who possess incredible strength for being a human, doesn't mean she could defeat him in a blink of an eye until realized how strong he is physically and she has to be careful. Vegeta is also a good example...

We have the definitive scalling between these sections according to the story: Androids saga: SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku > SSJ Trunks > Piccolo Cell Games: SSJ Goku > SSJ Vegeta = SSJ Trunks (there's no distinction in the Cell Games as Cell consider them secundary options to fight after Goku gave...

Well i'm not talking about you in specific. I'd admit that I do that to an exent.

In the fight, he managed to broke Dabura's sword and avoid his spit, as well as to receive no damage from his attacks.

I don't know. I think the major mistake of us as fans is to speculate something without any particular data, put too much influence into our beliefs rather than the author intention and speculates of things that didn't happen or don't have any actual clue about.

Well, yeah, maybe I overreacted, but @Kyo got me that sensation. Regardless, I'll be abandoning this site, at the very least, I would not reach 2025 with all of you. And it's too late for many people to come to terms with me, it was ever since October 2023, but, regardless of your intention...

@SIAD It is actually a good list. Mikael put too much effort in doing those lists that it's actually admirable.

The problem is that sometimes Toei portrays a abundant gap like CG SSJ Gohan over CG SSJ Goku to be "may be even stronger", so Hatchiyack can be much stronger based on that. I don't see Suppressed PC to be able to tank a FF from CG SSJ Vegeta, so him being FP Perfect Cell level actually seems...

No they aren't. Vegeta is Cell Games Vegeta as he is just a SSJ in the remastered OVA.

As expected. Your mental invalidity impedes you to actually create an counterargument no matter how stupid or absurd may be.

Let's see what kind of mental ramblings people are going to post in this case. Up to now, only animals has posted in this thread. There are few people in which I think it can bring plausible solutions to this, even then the possibility of them being morons is open too.

Despite of proving to be a stupid simian, I will at least acknowledge that you got it right and I was doing it wrong. It was 4.5 ahead of Vegeta in 2nd case. And is 5.83 in Broly's case ahead of Goku. However, I don't expect you to actually make a proper counterargument considering the simian...

You feel uncapable of adressing something you doesn't like. Typical shit tier debater.