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Well, I'd say the Grade forms is what allowed for such growth. I don't think non-Grade form Vegeta is anywhere near that strong. How do you deny the promotional material for BoG that outright states Super Saiyan is 50x?

As they prepare for Raditz, Piccolo asks Goku if he has any new moves. Goku says no. I agree with this. The Androids Saga amp is higher than the Saiyan Saga amp. So what's the amp you have for Kamehameha in the Androids Saga?

In the anime, Gero says he's been tracking Goku since the 22nd World Tournament. The Super Kamehameha was an impressive attack. Certainly Piccolo's disdain for Cell's Kamehameha must be coming from the original Kamehameha, don't you think?

When was Goku's Kamehameha harvested for data? I would argue that the original Kamehameha is what Cell inherited. Or possibly the Kaioken Kamehameha, which has no amp. But, I am leaning towards the original Kamehameha.

Yeah, I don't have too much of a problem with it honestly. I've been forced to bump them up to Piccolo levels myself. I just don't think they should be exceedingly beyond the Androids. Put it this way, if all they needed to do was some Rosat training to beat the Androids, they would have. They...

You have Gohan and Goku surpassing Piccolo in such a short time?

Because Gohan literally wasn't fighting. When Gohan truly puts his best foot forward, he's superior, if he's half assing it, he's weaker. That's my take.

Sure, but Monster Zarbon never did anything to appear superior than Vegeta. Gohan and Cell went head to head and Cell got dropped quick. Sure, that's possible. Just not how I interpret it overall. Yes, he doesn't want to go toe to toe because it would take too long. That's the point.

Exactly. He seemingly admits inferiority when he is forced to resort to ki blasts and a bear hug.

But @ahill1 I just explained why. It's the same reason Gohan talks speed against Fat Buu, or Piccolo does against 3rd Form Freeza, or Freeza does against Vegeta. It's because that's the topic at hand. Not some special speed boost only scenario people seem to think.

I think Cell's power and speed scale together. Every time someone says their power goes up, there speed follows suit. It's so odd for people to think that people saying their speed has increased would not mean the same. Power and Speed increase together. Cell wouldn't expect a punch that...

Yeah, that little dismissive kick is insane to do to Gohan. I've always taken that as Gohan not going full bore there and halfheartedly attacking. Cell can't be that much stronger than Gohan there, out of nowhere, can he?

This doesn't look bad. Where do you have Buff Cell and Grade 3 Trunks at? Forgot to include them.

Show me this. Android 18 1 Base Kids Piccolo Light Grenade Imperfect Cell Semi Perfect Cell Super Vegeta Perfect Cell 50% Goku I'll be able to determine who you nerfed with these few characters. I promise you that you nerfed at least 3 or 4 characters here. Keep Android 18 as 1 and fill in...

This should still be the case if Cell equals Gohan. I don't think one barrage from Majin Vegeta to Goku will drop his power like that. Equal power leveled opponents can't hurt each other that easily. Should be because of Gohan's unwillingness to fight. There's no noted comments about Cell's...

Oh just CG? 1. Warm Up 2. Powered up Vs Goku 3. Powered Up vs Gohan 4. Full Power 5. Buff 6. Super Perfect What evidence is there that Cell powers up with bear hug?

1. Faki Ki 2. Real Power (Base Cell) 3. Buff Cell (vs Trunks) 4. Powered Up vs Goku 5. Powered Up vs Gohan 6. Full Power 7. Buff Power 8. Super Perfect Cell He absolutely does a significant power up from fighting Goku to Gohan for sure.

Indeed, Vegeta is in a bit of a contradictory state of mind. Openly he claims to be the one to finish the job, claiming superiority no doubt, quietly however, he has a gut feeling that Goku can go even beyond. This is a complex scenario of emotions going on here.

Yeah, Vegetto needs Super Saiyan to overcome Base Gokan in the Buu Saga, now Vegetto surpasses Base Gokan in his own Base state. A truly amazing feat. That's what makes sense to me.

Vegetto BoG > Gokan BoG > Gokan Buu > Vegetto Buu Remember, Gokan gets much stronger as well.