17’s ToP feats

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Goku and Dende consider 17 to be in the former’s level, but they can’t sense his Ki. His feats don’t help either: All 17 does is not one shot Dyspo in their fight (in comparison PSSJB Goku and Vegeta basically ran over him) and take a punch from Jiren, but even base Goku did that.

 

[Future Warrior]

He's at least stronger than SSJ3 Goku, arguably close to SSJB level. Just because Toriyama likes him.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But how can the others confirm that without sensing his Ki?

 

[Future Warrior]

By watching him fight.

 

[Pyro]

I still don't agree about that one "he's almost as strong as us" line meaning 17's literally almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta. Like you said, his feats don't back it up, and the line is ambiguous enough that it can be more broad than specific.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

#17 also took a hit from Jiren at the same time he was using enough effort to tool Golden Freeza, so I'd say he's not without feats to back up the statements for the high-end interpretation of his power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

By watching him fight.

Fight who? Dyspo? Dende wasn’t even watching the ToP, and he acknowledged 17’s strength too. Did he watch 17’s life from the Lookout or something?

@Captain Cadaver how is that any different from Kami catching a punch from Piccolo Jr right before admitting he couldn’t even keep track of them? Or Base Goku blocking Merged Zamasu’s blasts aimed at killing everyone in the planet?

 

[Pyro]

Fight who? Dyspo? Dende wasn’t even watching the ToP, and he acknowledged 17’s strength too. Did he watch 17’s life from the Lookout or something?

@Captain Cadaver how is that any different from Kami catching a punch from Piccolo Jr right before admitting he couldn’t even keep track of them? Or Base Goku blocking Merged Zamasu’s blasts aimed at killing everyone in the planet?

I agree with you, meng, and imma let you finish. But didn't Dende say 17 wasn't the same as before? So he had to have been watching at some point.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

how is that any different from Kami catching a punch from Piccolo Jr right before admitting he couldn’t even keep track of them? Or Base Goku blocking Merged Zamasu’s blasts aimed at killing everyone in the planet?

Piccolo was caught off guard with that defence, and blocking Jiren's punch wasn't #17's only feat against him, and Zamasu needn't have put in much effort to wipe out what was for the most part regular humans. He also endured being smacked away by Jiren immediately after blocking the punch you're referring to and even recovered from it better than Golden Freeza did.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I know off guard attacks do wonders but how does that work here? 17 and Kami flat out stopping a punch aimed at someone as strong/stronger than them is nuts. Did Piccolo and Jiren not put that much effort because Goku and Freeza couldn’t block? Like not holding back the punch, just not putting all their strength into it.

Stopping someone from falling out isn’t that much of a feat. Dyspo and Vegeta saved Toppo and Cabba from being knocked by Kefla, respectively. Vegeta also saved Goku from being knocked out by Jiren.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Stopping someone from falling out isn’t that much of a feat. Dyspo and Vegeta saved Toppo and Cabba from being knocked by Kefla, respectively. Vegeta also saved Goku from being knocked out by Jiren.

Dyspo and Vegeta hadn't been whacked by Kefla/Jiren whilst doing so, let alone with the same level of effort as those they were saving.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Captain Cadaver what about base Goku taking a punch meant for UI Sign Goku? It’s not quite the same as blocking, but he’s still taking a blow far beyond his level nonetheless.

Also, #17 vs Dyspo lasts from the beginning of chapter 39 to the middle of 40, the longest fight started in that chapter. In comparison, Blue Vegeta easily swatted Dyspo away like a bug and he was focused on Toppo there. How’s that for being Blue level?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

@Captain Cadaver what about base Goku taking a punch meant for UI Sign Goku? It’s not quite the same as blocking, but he’s still taking a blow far beyond his level nonetheless.

Goku is well known for his durability, such as enduring Oozaru Vegeta or 50% Freeza's attacks when fatigued in base, so that's nothing out of the norm for him. #17, meanwhile, isn't well known to be as much of a natural tank as the Saiyans.

Also, #17 vs Dyspo lasts from the beginning of chapter 39 to the middle of 40, the longest fight started in that chapter. In comparison, Blue Vegeta easily swatted Dyspo away like a bug and he was focused on Toppo there. How’s that for being Blue level?

The entire fight was also offscreen, so how serious #17 was or what opportunity he had for a decisive blow is debatable at best.