22nd Tenkaichi Budokai

[p123]

Alright we need to figure out this complicated mess. Perhaps the hardest saga to figure out.

We need to address Goku's power vs King Chappa in comparison to Yamcha and Krillen's.

We need to address what the hell Match Level Goku is, how it compares to Tien and Jackie and we have to figure out if Tien was at full power from the get go against Goku.

Everything else is cake.

 

[p123]

Oh let's not forget to discuss Super Dodonpa as well.

 

[ahill1]

This saga is hard to figure. The overall chain is Goku >= Tenshinhan > Muten Roshi > Tsuru > Kuririn >= Yamcha >= Chaozu > King Chappa > Panputto. That is without doing the complete breakdown.

Talking about Tenshinhan, I think he displayed 7 different levels of effort:




1- His initial power to fight with the guys in the preliminaries. Yamcha and Kuririn were a bit surprised, but Kuririn even said it's not that of a big deal:

Kuririn - He wasn't all that amazing.

2- When he fought on par with base Yamcha and all were like "Whoa"!! This power is equal to base Yamcha:

^This power is probably on par with the power Goku used to defeat King Chappa or stronger (see SIAD's points).

3- The power he used to match Yamcha's Fist of the Wolf Fang Gale 2.0, actually having an advantage in the ened:

4- power used to block the Kamehameha. I actually think he powered up to do this, since the Kamehameha was Yamcha's special technique.

This power could also one-shot Yamcha and was the same he used initially against Jackie Chun IMO.

5- When Jackie Chun got serious Tenshinhan did the same, even more considering they were basically equal before. If Jackie Chun used more effort, then Tenshinhan had to do the same in order to fight evenly with him. Also, look at Jackie Chun's face when Tenshinhan was coming at him:

Clearly a difference in effort.

6- The power he used to get the advantage over full match level Goku, who is a little bit stronger than Kame-Sen'nin unseen full power IMO.

7- His full power, used right after Goku showed his battle level.

I only have a bit of trouble figuring out this quote, used right after both Tenshinhan and Kame-Sen'nin got serious:


Chapter: 124, P2.1-2
Tenshinhan: “Alright, I’ll fight you seriously just a little bit…!”
Kame-sennin: “Wha!? Are you saying you weren’t [fighting] seriously before?”

 

[p123]

I personally don't count the preliminary powers because they are useless, except for Goku vs Chappa. But anyway. Let's detail Tien's power.


Yamcha walks away from Chappa vs Goku bewildered. It doesn't seem like Yamcha would be able to replicate that, Yamcha goes so far as to say he doesn't think anyone could have beaten Chappa in that manner. Sure as hell sounds like Yamcha would not be able to do what Goku did right there. Goku most likely is using the power he used against Krillen initially to defeat Chappa.

Goku Initial >= Krillen >= Yamcha >= Chaozu


1) Don't forget, Yamcha gains the upperhand at the end, doesn't have to mean anything, just saying.

2) Ends up slightly superior to Yamcha's improved WFF.

3) Yes agreed, he had to power up, the version before this would not be able to two shot Yamcha. Yamcha's WFF is strong, but not strong enough to two shot himself.

4) We have to look into if Tien's power to finish Yamcha was used to initially fight Jackie. Most likely, but we have to investigate more.

Yes, Roshi powers up and Tien matches him,

5) Tien doesn't seem to power up to hurt Goku doing his super speed technique imo.

 

[ahill1]

Added the images, could add the spoilers.

 

[ahill1]

And yeah, I don't think he powered up when Goku used his speed technique, he was at that level since the beginning of the fight. Full match level Goku and almost full power Ten must be pretty close, they fought evenly and Ten's Dodonpa did no damage to Goku. Ten only took the upper hand when he kind of took Goku off guard, since Goku prolly didn't expect he'd see through his technique.

 

[p123]

With Yamcha, Goku considers him amazing, but Yamcha also doesn't think he could have beat King Chappa so easily. So there's that.

I honestly don't think Yamcha would walk through King Chappa.

 

[p123]

With Yamcha, Goku considers him amazing, but Yamcha also doesn't think he could have beat King Chappa so easily. So there's that.

I honestly don't think Yamcha would walk through King Chappa.

 

[p123]

Goku thinks either Jackie or Tien could win. It's close.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. Yamcha walks away from Chappa vs Goku bewildered. It doesn't seem like Yamcha would be able to replicate that, Yamcha goes so far as to say he doesn't think anyone could have beaten Chappa in that manner. Sure as hell sounds like Yamcha would not be able to do what Goku did right there. Goku most likely is using the power he used against Krillin initially to defeat Chappa.

2. We have to look into if Tien's power to finish Yamcha was used to initially fight Jackie. Most likely, but we have to investigate more.

3. Tien doesn't seem to power up to hurt Goku doing his super speed technique imo.

1. You have to take into account everything in the context of Yamcha's statement: Goku's creativity (breath bomb) as well as his relaxed face.
Yamcha could produce a power like that Goku used against Chappa, but his face would show he's tiring himself and it'd take him a while to
win; Goku won with a smart out of bounds, he didn't knock the foe unconscious, this would have taken longer.

2. I don't think Tien powered up to counter Yamcha's KHH. He did a trick with kiai. My gaps are...
Yamcha/Initial Tien- 100
Yamcha WFF- 120
Powered Up Tien- 133
Yamcha KHH- 133

3. Tien saw through Goku's super speed and that allowed him to gain a few hits.
-Roshi's statements indicate that: FP Roshi~Match Level Goku=<FP Tien.
-When the fight starts, Match Level Goku and Tien fight evenly, which confirms Roshi's statements.

 

[p123]

1) I think that's largely up to interpretation. Yamcha clearly respects Chappa's power, whereas Goku doesn't. I think Yamcha vs Chappa is a better fight than you are letting on.

2) He had to, he wouldn't be able to KO Yamcha at the level he was at with the WFF. It has to be another power up.

Tien Power Up 3 > KHH > Tien Power Up 2 >= Wolf Fang Fist

He's marginally superior to the WFF and then he's one shotting Yamcha. There's a power up there.


3) You think Tien started off FP and didn't change against Goku?

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1) I think that's largely up to interpretation. Yamcha clearly respects Chappa's power, whereas Goku doesn't. I think Yamcha vs Chappa is a better fight than you are letting on.

2) He had to, he wouldn't be able to KO Yamcha at the level he was at with the WFF. It has to be another power up.

Tien Power Up 3 > KHH > Tien Power Up 2 >= Wolf Fang Fist

He's marginally superior to the WFF and then he's one shotting Yamcha. There's a power up there.


3) You think Tien started off FP and didn't change against Goku?

2. It was a surprise attack.
3. Yes.

 

[p123]

Ok, so I just looked even more.

Tien's Power

1) Initial (During Prelims)

2) More or less matching Yamcha's Full Power

3) Slight edge on Wolf Fang Fist

4) Used to Block KHH and one/two shot Yamcha, this level should be used against Jackie Chun initially.

5) Jackie powers up, Tien matches it.

6) Tien states he hasn't been fighting seriously and he will now, at least a little bit.


So I got 6 total powers from the beginning to the end of his fight with Jackie Chun. I think there are 2 powers against Goku, but that will be for another day. Wow. Tien has Cell/Freeza amount of levels going on. Crazy.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

I still think powers 3 and 4 can be the same.

 

[p123]

I don't know. He's clearly concentrating his ki. Surprise attack or not, Yamcha shouldn't be getting KO'd by merely a kick to the stomach at WFF levels. I just don't buy it. If Yamcha cloned himself and surprise attacked himself while using WFF, I just don't think he gets KO'd. Do you?

 

[ahill1]

P, how do you see Roshi compared to Goku and Ten? Distant rival?

 

[p123]

I'm not quite sure. Roshi clearly is a respectable power to Tien. There are tons of statements that suggest that Roshi is right there with Tien. So I can't just overlook that. Withheld might have the best POV on the topic, but it seems like too small of a boost for Match Level to Battle Level.

What's new is that Tien appears to have powered up twice against Jackie Chun. Does he power up at all against Goku? I think that's where we left off. Do you agree Tien powered up when he did the Solar Flare?

 

[ahill1]

I don't think he powered up when he did the Solar Flare. I think "by showing a bit of his powers" he meant the Taiyô-ken, much like Tao Pai Pai meant the Dodonpa when he said he'd get really serious now.

 

[p123]

That's a fair point, however...(Viz of course)

Jackie Chun: What! You mean, you haven't been going all out until now?

Krillen: That's a lie, he's been fighting at full strength the whole time!

These characters sure as hell take it as a power statement.

 

[ahill1]

Well, those were basically the characters' perception of what Tenshinhan meant by fighting seriously, no? I don't think meant it by a battle power standart honestly.