Android 19/20 Power Discussion

[p123]

Figured we'd start a new thread to hone in on this issue that came up in another thread... What we want to do is zero in on these two, there relation to the Android Saga Super Saiyans as well as the Cyborg Freeza Saga Super Saiyans.

Here's what I'd like to see numerically...


1) Super Saiyan Vegeta, Drained by 19, Post BBA
2) Super Saiyan Goku (Healthy), Sick Goku, Sick Goku (Post Kamehameha)
3) Super Saiyan Trunks
4) Piccolo
5) Android #20 Pre/Post Absorption
6) Android #19 Pre/Post Absorption
7) Yardrat Goku
8) Trunks Mecha


If we can master this chain here, we can have something special. No one really knows how to tackle this shit, let's get er done!

 

[p123]

Vegeta 1,250
Goku 1,200
Trunks 1,100
Piccolo 1,000
20 Post 850
Sick Goku 750
19 Post 700
Sicker Goku 600
20 Pre 550
19 Pre 500
Drained Vegeta Post BBA 400

Unsure of where to put Drained Vegeta and 19 Post Vegeta Absorption...

 

[Victorious]

Considering 24K Vegeta hurt Monster Zarbon don't you think Piccolo > #20 post is a bigger gap? Though I'm cool with it being. = to a 24K Vegeta > Dodoria gap. Between 77% and 83% is perfect for that fight.

 

[p123]

Vegeta vs Monster Zarbon isn't a great standard bearer fight imo. Vegeta is able to clash with him on occasion and Monster Zarbon looks like he has a power advantage, but not really a speed advantage. Then later, we see Zenkai Vegeta surprised at Monster Zarbon's speed. I don't know what to make of it really. Perhaps Monster Zarbon was holding back his speed initially and allowing Vegeta to hit him? What is the gap between Vegeta and Monster Zarbon? 85% or so? But it's weird, Vegeta vs Monster Zarbon is closer than Vegeta vs regular Zarbon, so what do you make of that?

As I said, 20 gets hit flush with a knee, but 20 is able to recover from it mid flight. I think that signifies it's nowhere near 75%. Vegeta is nearly KO'd by Reecome doing the same attack.

 

[ahill1]

I have #19 post at 60% of SSJ Vegeta. It COULD be less depending on how you see the fat androids' relationship with #20, but I don't think it NEEDS to be. Remember that Vegeta was generally nonchalantly going through #19's defense, punching him into the face, mocking him... he wasn't using effort at all and the only instance he seemed to put some level of effort was when punching (it wasn't exactly a punch, but dunno how to call that) #19 into the ground. #19 wasn't one shotted, sure, but you have to remember that he isn't an organic being, he doesn't feel pain like the others. That's the reason he got up like nothing after receiving a hell of a beatdown by sick Goku's hands, much to Yamcha's surprise. Tenshinhan explained that the reason he isn't affected by it is due to being a robot and consequently not feeling pain or fatigue. Sure that his strength also has a finger on it, but his body consitution also helps a lot.

So the fact that Goku could one-three shot the Ginyus doesn't necessarily mean anything in my book. The Ginyus are organic beings, they feel pain, and the only instance #19 seemed to be agonizing in pain was in an add-in scene in the anime. So I am perfectly fine with Vegeta's gap over #19 being the same as Goku's gap over the Ginyus, although yeah, I do have Semi Cell's gap over #16 and #17's gap over Piccolo as considerably above than that (right at a 50/100 gap). Whilst you could still explain away Piccolo being one-shotted, #16 was still fully robot.

 

[p123]

I agree, 19 Pre vs Vegeta is a tremendous gap. Vic argues that it's not as big as Goku vs the Ginyu Force. What do you say to that? I probably would agree with him.

Ginyu Force is 60% of Goku
19 Post is 66% of Vegeta

Is probably what I would go with...

We also know that 19 Post vs Vegeta is closer than Cell vs SS2 Gohan. Cell is probably 60% of SS2 Gohan.

Vic, what do you think of that?

Organic vs inorganic is absolutely an issue here, it's stated in the manga as well.

 

[ahill1]

I am fine with it being a 60/100 gap. Like I said, Goku one-shotting the Ginyus and Vegeta failing to do the same against #19 doesn't mean all that much. One could even argue Vegeta was dragging the fight a bit so he could be sure they sucked energy with the palms of their hands, but yeah, I don't think it was stated.

 

[p123]

Yea, I generally feel the same. I could see it being a little different, but definitely similar. I don't have an issue with that. However, what about Cell vs Gohan then? Cell vs Gohan is 55% then?

 

[ahill1]

55% is what I generally have for Cell vs Gohan. #16 vs initial Semi Cell/ SSJG2 Vegeta vs Warm up Cell would be a 50% to me. All based on the tank gaps. You could even say the latter fight had an even slightly bigger gap due to Cell's face being still in a bit of a discomfort when #16 punched him.

 

[p123]

50% Android 16 vs Semi Cell, Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta vs Perfect Cell.
55% Perfect Cell vs Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
60% Ginyu Force vs Goku, 19 Post Absorption vs Vegeta
65% Semi Cell vs Super Saiyan Grade 2 Vegeta

Is this what you think?

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, basically this, although I'd have the gap between Vegeta and Semi Cell as a liitle above that. 70-75% works better for me.

 

[p123]

The tank is basically the same as 19 vs Vegeta though. Why the disparity?

 

[ahill1]

The tank isn't quite the same. Vegeta is still moved somewhat more by Semi Cell's punch if I am looking at it right. He gets punched and moved considerably, his body is almost parallel to the ground... he looks 'less' closer to the ground in the next panel, but it's possible Vegeta has already moved up a little compared to how he was the moment he was punched. He was still considerably moved by #19 but it still doesn't seem as bad as the aforementioned situation.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

SSJ Trunks (Mecha): 500
SSJ Goku (Mecha): 600

Android 19: 375
~ Post: 500
Android 20: 475
~ Post: 600

Piccolo: 750

SSJ Trunks: 925

SSJ Goku: 975
~ Sick: 750 (Stamina: 500)

SSJ Vegeta: 1,000
~ Post 19: 600
~ Post BBA: 480

 

[p123]

With 19, Vegeta gets sent straight back, with Semi Cell, he gets knocked to the side. The tanks are pretty similar.

@ GS

A lot of us don't think 19 Post should be 50% of Vegeta. The gap seems too wide. Also, 20 Pre is in awe of Sick Goku, I don't think 500 will be enough, 20 wants nothing to do with Sick Goku...

 

[withheldforprivacy]

Namek Goku- 300
Mecha Freeza- 320
Alternate Trunks- 480
Yardrat Goku- 600
Alternate Gohan- 450
Alternate Seventeen (less than half)- 400
Alternate Seventeen (max)- 1.200
Alternate Eighteen- 1.200

3 years later...
Nineteen- 500
Healthy Goku- 1.125
Sick Goku (initial)- 1.000
Sick Goku (post first exchange)- 700
Nineteen (post KHH)- 600
Goku (post KHH)- 550
Vegeta- 1.200
Vegeta (energy drained)- 1.000
Nineteen (post Vegeta)- 800
Alternate Trunks- 1.050
Piccolo- 900
Gero (initial)- 650
Vegeta (post BBA)- 600
Gero (post absorptions)- 750

 

[p123]

I don't think Sick Goku lost any power until after the Kamehameha. All that's stated is that he is rushing the battle even though he's so weak in comparison to his true power.

Do you really think Vegeta lost nearly 40% of his power because of the BBA? Seems extremely excessive.

Do you think 19 Post should be 50% of Vegeta? What's the gap between SS2 Gohan and Cell then in your list?

 

[ahill1]

The tank feats weren't really that similar.


Vegeta vs #19

Spoiler

Vegeta vs Semi Cell

Spoiler

Vegeta looks about the same in both stances when he emerges from the punches, but still it's pretty clear Vegeta was moved more considerably in the Semi Cell's instance. He seems ligit falling into the ground with his body parallel to it. It seems to be more comparable to Recoome taking Vegeta's punch than Vegeta himself taking #19's punch. Maybe he seemed a little more impressive than Recoome, but still not as 'impressive' as Vegeta vs #19 imo. Hence why I think 70% seems to be a good middle ground.

 

[Kyo]

He moved differently because Cell threw a hook is all, I think

 

[ahill1]

He moved differently because Cell threw a hook is all, I think

Yep, it's possible that Vegeta moved differently because Cell's fist connected to the side of his face, whereas in the #19 example Vegeta was punched frontally.