Android 19/20 Power Discussion

[ahill1]

As far as the manga goes, #19 didn't throw a hook into Vegeta's face, so saying the gap between both fights is similar due to the tank feats is already something a bit iffy. We can't draw a 'similar gap' comparison from the tank feat alone because they don't compare that much.

 

[p123]

Sure we can. Vegeta gets moved unwillingly and recovers fast. That happens in both instances. In other tanks, there is no movement.

 

[ahill1]

Sure we can. Vegeta gets moved unwillingly and recovers fast. That happens in both instances. In other tanks, there is no movement.

He gets moved in both instances, but unless I am looking at it wrongly, he gets moved more when punched by Cell. Gohan does also get moved by Cell and recovers fast. Simply getting moved and recovering doesn't mean the tank feat is comparable.

Like Kyo said, Cell got Vegeta into a hook whereas #19 punched him frontally, so the comparison is already not a strong one due to the punches techniques being different ones.

 

[Kyo]

I was refuting your point ahill, not p's

You were trying to use the dissimilarities to say something about their power

 

[ahill1]

I was refuting your point ahill, not p's

You were trying to use the dissimilarities to say something about their power

No, I was saying that the gap between Cell and Vegeta doesn't have to be similar to the one between Vegeta and #19 since the tanking feats don't exactly compare. P was saying that the tank feat in the fight against Cell was pretty much the same as in the fight against #19, then I posted those images and explained why I don't think they compare... Vegeta was budged more considerably. THAT was in response to P saying they are basically the same.

Then what you said -- that the punch technique employed by each fighter was different -- only adds fuel to the tank feat not being an indication that the gaps need to be the same.

 

[ahill1]

You were trying to use the dissimilarities to say something about their power

P was the one who used the tank feat in the first place to denote a gap comparison. I was saying why I don't think the tank feats are the same and therefore doesn't mean Vegeta's gap over Cell was the same as the one he had over #19.

 

[withheldforprivacy]

1. I don't think Sick Goku lost any power until after the Kamehameha. All that's stated is that he is rushing the battle even though he's so weak in comparison to his true power.

2. Do you really think Vegeta lost nearly 40% of his power because of the BBA? Seems extremely excessive.

3. Do you think 19 Post should be 50% of Vegeta? What's the gap between SS2 Gohan and Cell then in your list?

1. Nineteen charges against Goku like a homming missile and Goku stops its whole body with his one arm.
That's an enormous gap to me. After that, the fight resembles more 1.2x a gap. That's why i think Sick
Goku started close to his max and his power was decreasing really fast.

2. The other explanation is he lost most of his energy to Nineteen. But that would require an even greater gap.

3. Tanking feats are inconsistent. Besides, maybe Vegeta only went full power during the struggle when he tore off Nineteen's hands.

 

[Kyo]

But you use the perceived difference in movement to make a comparison yourself

"Maybe he seemed a little more impressive than Recoome, but still not as 'impressive' as Vegeta vs #19 imo. Hence why I think 70% seems to be a good middle ground."

--

p says they're both tanking feats in which the recipient is budged considerably.

You point out the difference in movement.

I point out that the punches thrown are different, which invalidates your point and brings us back to the *main* point -- which is simply that there was movement. This is the important point, and the minor difference you point out is less important. As in not worth considering. There is no need to split hairs over it, they're similar enough all things considered.

 

[ahill1]

But you use the perceived difference in movement to make a comparison yourself

"Maybe he seemed a little more impressive than Recoome, but still not as 'impressive' as Vegeta vs #19 imo. Hence why I think 70% seems to be a good middle ground."

Because Vegeta was moved more considerably in the Cell's case. Sure, there's the position Cell's fist connected with Vegeta's face, which I had already considered as something someone could bring up, but wished to analyze both instances as far as the movements go.

P said the tank feat was comparable and I pointed out why they weren't comparable because I see it as Vegeta moving out more considerably in the second instance... whether that is because Cell got him into a hook or because Cell was simply more powerful in comparison to #19, that doesn't matter (yeah, forget the part I said the gap is like 70%)... which matters is that P wasn't considering the technique employed by each fighter on his comments and was only considering how much "budged" Vegeta got after each punch -- and my post comparing how much budged Vegeta got after each punch works as a retort for that -- not to how much the gap should be.

It MIGHT invalidate the point (I say might because it's still debatable whether punching someone frontally will budge said someone more than getting them into a hook) that the gap between Semi Cell and Vegeta is bigger because of THAT. It doesn't invalidate the point that the tank feat is not enough to draw a comparison between the combatant's relationship. The amount every one of them was moved COULD be important (as in, if the punch technique doesn't have a difference favoring the amount Vegeta was budged vs #19) because it denotes a feat as less impressive than the other. If someone was budged more considerably than the other, then said tank would be less impressive despite both being moved up.

 

[Victorious]

Well P if you have Vegeta vs #19 at 66% and have Goku vs Ginyu at 60% then that's fine. I too have Goku vs Ginyus at 60%. And my 70% for the Vegeta vs #19 fight is a mere 4% difference to your 66%.

 

[Victorious]

Regarding Gero vs Piccolo didnt 70% Freeza catch himself in mid air against SSJ Goku?

 

[SSJ2]

You're thinking of 50% Freeza vs Goku. Goku never touched 70% Freeza.

 

[p123]

66% would be max. There's a major difference in what Goku can do to Vegeta than what Vegeta can do to 19. Vegeta absolutely crushes 19. Horribly so. With zero effort.

 

[Victorious]

66% would be max. There's a major difference in what Goku can do to Vegeta than what Vegeta can do to 19. Vegeta absolutely crushes 19. Horribly so. With zero effort.

He beat Cui easier IMO. One could easily put that gap at.75%

 

[p123]

Cui is a horrible example, that's a 60% gap if I ever saw one. But 19 vs Cui could be more or less the same gap because 19 is a Robot and unable to feel pain or fatigue like Cui is.

 

[Victorious]

No 19 fatigues or loses power and stamina, he just doesn't feel pain. There's nothing wrong with me putting Vegeta > 19 post 70% if Vegeta > Cui was 75%.

 

[p123]

Sure, if you follow Cui being 75%, there's also nothing wrong with putting Gohan vs Cell at 66% either then.

 

[Victorious]

I view SSJ2 Gohan vs FP Cell as 60-66%. Seems bigger than SSJ Vegeta > #19 post.

 

[p123]

The tank would indicate it is.

But you also keep 19 Post > 20 Post to maintain your percentage gap. Meanwhile, you are the last of the Mohicans holding onto that.

 

[Victorious]

What I've had for years


Initial Semi Cell> #16 = 50%
SSJ2 Kid Gohan > FP PC = 60%
SSJ Vegeta > #19 post = 70%