Android 19 and 20 pre and post

[ahill1]

I find a bit hard to believe Gero was just wrong. He knew how much Goku's power decreased after the KHH, and how much #19's power increased. I find a bit hard he would just read the wrong number.

Maybe he was wrong in his calculations, of being able to overcome Vegeta just absorbing Piccolo's suppressed powers once more, but I find it hard he would read Goku's SSJ power just wrong.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Being right at times doesn't have to mean he's infallible.

Gero goes from thinking Piccolo+Gohan+Tien+Krillin=Enough power to beat Vegeta

To thinking Piccolo alone is enough to give him enough power to beat Vegeta. His assessment of power is just shit at times.

 

[SSJ2]

19 post, a fair amount stronger than Trunks from 3 years ago. 19 pre, significantly weaker than 19 post.

20 post, significantly but not overwhelmingly stronger than post-Yardrat Goku. 20 pre, maybe around 19 post or less.

Do you agree with the notion of 20 pre being above 19 post? I don't recall your viewpoint.

 

[SSJ2]

I did originally, but #20's radar makes me think he isn't fully comprehending Goku's power. He has the same exact reaction to Vegeta after turning Super Saiyan and knocking #19 down. His radar is ass.

Vegeta could be suppressed too, no?

Vegeta couldn't suppress Super Saiyan. That's a trait of a mastered SSJ.

 

[ahill1]

I did originally, but #20's radar makes me think he isn't fully comprehending Goku's power. He has the same exact reaction to Vegeta after turning Super Saiyan and knocking #19 down. His radar is ass.

Vegeta could be suppressed too, no?

Vegeta couldn't suppress Super Saiyan. That's a trait of a mastered SSJ.

Well, since Gero said Goku SSJ sick (initial) was still within a level 19 could handle, this could imply Goku was initially suppressed.

 

[SSJ2]

Vegeta could be suppressed too, no?

Vegeta couldn't suppress Super Saiyan. That's a trait of a mastered SSJ.

Well, since Gero said Goku SSJ sick (initial) was still within a level 19 could handle, this could imply Goku was initially suppressed.

Well he was wrong because 19 was getting manhandled, and Goku tanked him with his hand.

 

[ahill1]

Vegeta couldn't suppress Super Saiyan. That's a trait of a mastered SSJ.

Well, since Gero said Goku SSJ sick (initial) was still within a level 19 could handle, this could imply Goku was initially suppressed.

Well he was wrong because 19 was getting manhandled, and Goku tanked him with his hand.

Hence why you could argue Goku being suppressed. Goku SSJ sick (power up) > 19 > Goku SSJ sick (initial).

 

[SSJ2]

Well, since Gero said Goku SSJ sick (initial) was still within a level 19 could handle, this could imply Goku was initially suppressed.

Well he was wrong because 19 was getting manhandled, and Goku tanked him with his hand.

Hence why you could argue Goku being suppressed. Goku SSJ sick (power up) > 19 > Goku SSJ sick (initial).

No, you can argue Gero being wrong, not Goku being suppressed. Super Saiyans don't have the ability to suppress until it is mastered.

 

[ahill1]

Well he was wrong because 19 was getting manhandled, and Goku tanked him with his hand.

Hence why you could argue Goku being suppressed. Goku SSJ sick (power up) > 19 > Goku SSJ sick (initial).

No, you can argue Gero being wrong, not Goku being suppressed. Super Saiyans don't have the ability to suppress until it is mastered.

Where was that said? Also, look at this quote:


Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P8.4-5, P9.
Piccolo: “Have you noticed too, Gohan?...”
Gohan: “Y-yes…”
Piccolo: “Son Goku is rushing the match for some reason…He’s already putting out close to his full power…But even so, what’s with that miserable condition of his?...”
Tenshinhan: “Th-that miserable condition…!? What are you talking about? Goku’s overwhelmingly pushing him back…!”
Piccolo: “It’s not that. As a Super Saiyan, Goku’s power should be more stupendous than this…”

Piccolo is kinda of surprised that Goku is already giving his maximum. Would not that be pointless if Goku could not suppress his power?



Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2
Context: Goku and Gohan emerge from the Room of Spirit and Time
Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…”


Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”


^That's all said regarding their Full Power Super Saiyan, I guess. Piccolo called it an "every day" level and was said they trained so they could decrease the stress caused by the SSJ transformation. Nothing of only so they being able to suppress their power.

 

[SSJ2]

That isn't what Piccolo is commenting about. He's commenting about Goku being ill by saying that the match is being rushed and that Goku wasn't even at full power. He's surprised by how fast Goku is taking everything, as if he needed to get it over with quickly. He's not trying to say Goku was suppressing.

Being able to suppress it was the huge thing. Super Saiyan was a taxing form that required a lot of energy use, but Goku/Gohan turned it into something that took no strain away due to being at low power. Vegeta states in that same quote that "even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small", implying that the only way he's able to increase is through a strenuous transformation, because he's unable to suppress his Super Saiyan form.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Not giving your all isn't the same thing as suppression. Goku has no reason to transform and be suppressed. It defeats the purpose entirely.

 

[ahill1]

Not giving your all isn't the same thing as suppression. Goku has no reason to transform and be suppressed. It defeats the purpose entirely.

What do you mean by Goku has no reason to transform and be suppressed? In the Yakon fight, he transformed and still was suppressed.

 

[SSJ2]

He could suppress by then.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

He has no reason to be suppressed in the #19 fight.

 

[ahill1]

He has no reason to be suppressed in the #19 fight.

Why not? He could be suppressed to avoid the needless waste of energy.

 

[SSJ2]

In the Android arc, Super Saiyan is a straining form, so trying to force yourself to suppress it would only cause more stress/power loss. This is why mastering the form was necessary.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You could say that about literally every fight in the series. No one wants to waste energy.

Why can't Gero just be wrong?

 

[ahill1]

I have a hard time believing Gero was wrong since he had a power radar anc could tell exactly Goku's power far surpassed his estimations (what he would not be capable of if he was not scouting his power) and even knew that power was within a range that even 19 could handle, implying he was reading sick Goku's power. After Goku landed the first punch, Gero is all surprised, implying Goku's initial read was wrong.

I also don't believe in that thing of Goku (fighting ki) being just >>> Goku (standing ki), since I'm operating under the belief that a mechanical scouter would still read both as the same, like the theory of Nappa being able to fool natural ki sensors, but not a mechanical scouter.

 

[Kyo]

19 post, a fair amount stronger than Trunks from 3 years ago. 19 pre, significantly weaker than 19 post.

20 post, significantly but not overwhelmingly stronger than post-Yardrat Goku. 20 pre, maybe around 19 post or less.

Do you agree with the notion of 20 pre being above 19 post? I don't recall your viewpoint.

I try to implement it if I can. It's not necessary and it's a bit difficult to do.

 

[ahill1]

19 post, a fair amount stronger than Trunks from 3 years ago. 19 pre, significantly weaker than 19 post.

20 post, significantly but not overwhelmingly stronger than post-Yardrat Goku. 20 pre, maybe around 19 post or less.

Do you agree with the notion of 20 pre being above 19 post? I don't recall your viewpoint.

I try to implement it if I can. It's not necessary and it's a bit difficult to do.

Why do you think 20 pre > 19 Post?