Barnacles, help me out with this.

[Pyro]

I've been trying to construct a battle power list for the Future Trunks arc (in the manga, obviously), but I can't seem to get it to work. The transformation boosts are the most troublesome aspect, because the powerscale cannot work with the boosts implied in the Universe 6 tournament.

Base Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJB Goku (<10%): 56
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 200
SSJG Goku: 400
SSJB Goku: 800

That works for the U6 tourney, but getting to the FT arc and it falls apart. We know from Trunks that he's nothing compared to Base Black, and he was on par with SSJ3 Goku. When we get to the future timeline, SSJ2 Vegeta is clearly superior to not just Base Black, but SSJ Black as well.



Base Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 200
SSJG Goku: 400
SSJB Goku: 800

Base Black: 250
SSJ Black: 500 (2x multiplier)
SSJ Black: 12,500 (50x multiplier)
SSJR Black: 1,000
SSJR Black: 200,000 (8x Super Saiyan)

Just using Goku here since he's convenient and equal to Vegeta still. You can already see that the multipliers don't make sense, even if I nerfed Black's Super Saiyan boost to a mere 2x. It still makes him stronger than SSJG Goku/Vegeta, which means SSJ2 Vegeta would either need to start out many times stronger than Goku (something not even remotely suggested), or he'd need his Super Saiyan 2 power to be compensating for Super Saiyan 1-3 as well as somewhere in between God and Blue, which is also retarded and nobody blinks an eye at Vegeta being capable of this. You could try to argue Trunks was accounting for Super Saiyan Goku Black, but judging by his surprise when Black does use Super Saiyan against Vegeta, that's highly unlikely.

Then we get to Black's Super Saiyan Rose transformation and the same problem occurs. A 2x boost actually works fairly well...IF the rest of Vegeta's transformations made sense at the time, but given the fact that his Super Saiyan 2 power was enough to beat Black's Super Saiyan 1 power, then what was the point of using Blue if it would only give him a ~15% boost? I mean, fuck. This isn't even the worst of it, because we still have the fusions and Complete Blue to account for.

Base Vegeta (post-BBQROAST): 2.5
SSJ Vegeta: 125
SSJ2 Vegeta: 250
SSJG Vegeta: 1,000
SSJB Vegeta: 2,000

Base Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 200
SSJG Goku: 400
SSJB Goku: 800
CSSJB Goku: 50,000 (62.5x SSJB?)

Fused Zamasu: 50,000

Base Vegetto: 3,000
SSJ Vegetto: 6,000
SSJ2 Vegetto: 12,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 24,000
SSJG Vegetto: 48,000
SSJB Vegetto: 96,000

Beerus: 95,000

But the problems stick out like a poop dick. Vegetto uses Blue on Zamasu, implying he couldn't get the job done with the lowers form, but that would imply around only a 2x difference between him and Zamasu. Beerus considers Goku and Vegeta barely rival material, which implies more than a mere 2x gap that would occur from Vegetto's scenario. But if Vegetto could be stronger than Fused Zamasu with a lower form, which we'd have to guess which one, it makes Base Vegetto kind of a douchebag to work with.

Base Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 200
SSJG Goku: 400
SSJB Goku: 800
CSSJB Goku: 8,000 (10x SSJB?)

Fused Zamasu: 8,000

Base Vegetto: 3,000
SSJ Vegetto: 6,000
SSJ2 Vegetto: 12,000
SSJ3 Vegetto: 24,000
SSJG Vegetto: 48,000
SSJB Vegetto: 96,000

Beerus: 95,000

That kind of gap makes a lot more sense between Beerus and the Saiyans, but it still puts into question Vegetto's thought process going all the way up to Blue if he could've gotten the job done with a less stamina consuming form like God.

:9000

 

[Papasmurf]

How many times has Toyotaro changed his mind in this manga arc? I don't particularly care for Black or Trunks' strange PIS moments like the latter's healing or the former not using Zamasu to heal when cornered by Vegeta, those are stupid but at least somewhat explainable. But SSJ2 Vegeta who's equal to Goku in base (and presumably SSJ, based on U6) is much stronger than SSJ3 Goku despite using a lesser form than SSJG. Then there's Goku learning Mafuba specifically since he had no way of destroying Zamasu and revealing he can do just that AND power himself up leagues above SSJR Black all at the flip of a hat.

Considering this it's no surprise the scaling came out as contradictory as it did. Honestly, Goku's likely suddenly stronger than Vegeta when he fights Merged Zamasu even before asspulling MSSJB just like he was in the anime.

 

[Future Warrior]

Base Goku: 1
SSJ Goku: 50
SSJB Goku (<10%): 60
SSJ2 Goku: 100
SSJ3 Goku: 400
SSJG Goku: 800
SSJB Goku: 1,000
FP/CSSB SSJB Goku: 2,000

Base Vegeta (post-BBQROAST): 1
SSJ Vegeta: 50
SSJ2 Vegeta: 675 (Rage boost against Beerus amped his SS2 form)
SSJG Vegeta: 800
SSJB Vegeta: 1,000
FP/CSSB SSJB Vegeta: 2,000

Base Goku Black: 500
SSJ Goku Black: 600
SSJ Goku Black (Post-Zenkai): 1,100
SSJ Rose Goku Black: 1,375

Merged Zamasu: 2,000

Base Vegetto: 1,500
SSJ Vegetto: 3,750
SSJ2 Vegetto: 4,687.5
SSJ3 Vegetto: 9,375
SSJG Vegetto: 15,000
SSJB Vegetto: 18,750 (Decided to use his strongest form in order to ensure that he can completely erase MZ from existence)
FP/CSSB Vegetto: 37,500

Beerus: 18,000

Was that so hard? 2 2 2

 

[Pyro]

Well, yeah, when you give every transformation a 20% increase, then anything can work. I was trying to operate under more of a strict multiplier license, broseph.

And you'd be dumped anyway. SSJG Vegeta was able to defend himself just fine against SSJR Black. Using Blue was just a way to hit him harder.

 

[Future Warrior]

Nothing goes against Vegeta turning Blue to defend himself against him.

 

[Pyro]

Nothing goes against Vegeta turning Blue to defend himself against him.

The entire fight does. We see when he uses Blue and God, and never does he use Blue to defend himself. Boy.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Goku and Vegeta got stronger before going to fight Goku-Black somehow.

 

[ahill1]

I prefer having SSJ as a ~2x multiplier as per Universe 6. It works better with Goku's performance against Hit, imo. Let's see:

Goku SSJ : 7
~SSJ2 : 14
~SSJ3 : 28
~SSJG : 56
~SSJB : 100

All seems fine here. Moving on...

Trunks "mastered" SSJ2 : 27 [said to be slightly weaker than Galu ssj3)

Black base : 32 [according to the fight they just had before Trunks going to the past, it didn't seem like Black had all that of an advantage against Trunks. The latter could push him back a little using strategy, and it was implied Trunks was strong enough in the past to make him stronger... a ~85% gap between them is tangible with the fight.]

Black SSJ : 64
Vegeta SSJ2 : 70

Then we have kind of a problem... Vegeta SSJ2 seems to be above Goku SSJG going by the numbas. Well, to solve this we could kind of nerf the lower forms, as well as Black's SSJ transformation.


Goku SSJ : 7
~SSJ2 : 10
~SSJ3 : 20
~SSJG : 60
~SSJB : 100

Black base : 22.5
~SSJ ~ 30

Vegeta SSJ2 : 35

Vegeta SSJ2 would still be way stronger than Goku SSJ3, obviously, but he at least would still pale in comparison to U6 Goku's God forms. It's either lower the SSJ2 and 3's multipliers or deal with Vegeta SSJ2 > Goku SSJ God.

Then, a question: is Vegeta's God forms also stronger than Goku's (and also his own) from Universe 6? If no, then the SSJG's multiplier over SSJ3 would be basically non existent. Assuming the God forms also got stronger alongside Vegeta's lower forms, and that their multipliers got constant, then we'd have:

Vegeta SSJ2 : 35
~SSJG : 210
~SSJB : 350


Black did dominate Vegeta SSJB once he got a Zenkai (apparently a huge one)... and not even after getting a Senzu Vegeta could keep up, so we know it wasn't due to Blue's energy depletion.

Black SSJ (post Zenkai) : 400
~SSJR : 5,700 [assuming his multiplier over SSJ is the same as Blue's over SSJ].

Vegeta SSJG (post RoSaT) : 5,700
~SSJB : 9,500

Then, in this case, you either assume the God's multiplier over the lower forms got a lot bigger or that Vegeta's SSJ and SSJ2 surpassed U6's non-God forms... no other way around it.

Then, by the reasons mentioned in the OP, it's likely only SSJB surpassed Merged Zamasu... you can have this latter at Vegetto SSJG's level to keep the gap between V. Blue and MZ as big as possible. There're some inplications for base Vegetto being > Goku and Vegeta Blue. Keeping the SSJ's multipliers over base constant for Vegetto (as the one I have at the U6 Tournament), we'd have something like:

Vegetto base : 12,000
~SSJ : 24,000
~SSJ2 : 35,000
~SSJ3 : 70,000
~SSJG : 210,000
~SSJB : 350,000

Merged Zamasu : 200,000 [still slightly below God Vegetto, but to such a small amount that would still force Vegetto to turn Blue to have a comfortable lead]

BUT... that'd make Completed SSJB Goku about as strong as Vegetto SSJG... meh.

Beerus one-shotting CSSJB Vegeta is still tangible with this kind of gap, although if you wish to have a multifold gap, then yeah, you'll have to go with "lower forms of Vegetto > MZ".

 

[Future Warrior]

The entire fight does. We see when he uses Blue and God, and never does he use Blue to defend himself. Boy.

By entire fight you mean one panel right? Showing him attack in Blue would have better demonstrated his use of switching forms.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Goku-Black beat Trunks up badly at the beginning of the saga. That was shown.

 

[ahill1]

Goku-Black beat Trunks up badly at the beginning of the saga. That was shown.

Trunks could still push him back a little with the usage of strategy. I think the fight is tangible with a ~85% , honestly.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Let me try this out.

Goku: 10
SSjin: 25
SSjin 2: 37.5
SSjin 3: 75
SSjin God: 250
SSjin Blue: 375

Trunks: 19,2
SSjin 2 Trunks: 72

Base Black: 90
Post (Trunks said he get stronger): 100
SSjin: 250

SSjin 2 Vegeta (Enraged, God Ki, whatever you call it): 300
SSjin Blue Vegeta: 375

SSjin Black (Zenkai): 450
SSjin Rose Black: 900

Vegeta (Post BBQ Roast): 36
SSjin: 90
SSjin 2: 112.5
SSjin 3: Doesn't have
SSjin God: 900
SSjin Blue: 1,350

Future Zamasu: 20

Merged Zamasu: 45,000


Vegerot: 2,000
SSjin: 5,000
SSjin 2: 7,500
SSjin 3: 15,000
SSjin God: 50,000
SSjin Blue: 75,000

Beerus: 74,000

Now get in your knees and suck me.

 

[Pyro]

The entire fight does. We see when he uses Blue and God, and never does he use Blue to defend himself. Boy.

By entire fight you mean one panel right? Showing him attack in Blue would have better demonstrated his use of switching forms.

It's explicitly stated and shown he only used Blue for his attacks. Claiming he used it to defend in an instance is unsupported, so please GO AHEAD AND PROVE IT. By what we're shown, SSJG Vegeta is enough to competently defend against SSJR Black.

 

[Future Warrior]

It's explicitly stated and shown he only used Blue for his attacks. Claiming he used it to defend in an instance is unsupported, so please GO AHEAD AND PROVE IT. By what we're shown, SSJG Vegeta is enough to competently defend against SSJR Black.

Goku was only stated to have upped his power when he attacks the Ginyu Force, but we know for a fact that he also used it to defend against their hits as well.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

The same can be said in this scenario. The most recent chapter also tells us that Vegeta and Goku are equals too.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Goku-Black beat Trunks up badly at the beginning of the saga. That was shown.

Trunks could still push him back a little with the usage of strategy. I think the fight is tangible with a ~85% , honestly.

How did he push him back? He could distract him a bit enough to escape, but even then that was mostly just because Goku-Black was an idiot and was toying.

 

[Pyro]

It's explicitly stated and shown he only used Blue for his attacks. Claiming he used it to defend in an instance is unsupported, so please GO AHEAD AND PROVE IT. By what we're shown, SSJG Vegeta is enough to competently defend against SSJR Black.

Goku was only stated to have upped his power when he attacks the Ginyu Force, but we know for a fact that he also used it to defend against their hits as well.

Chapter: 281 (DBZ 87), P11.2-4
Vegeta: “Ka-Kakarot rapidly heightens his battle power for the brief instant when he attacks…That’s probably to decrease unnecessary energy consumption…It’s for an extremely brief instant, so even the scouters probably can’t pick up on it…Th-this is an outrageous battle power…H-how did he get that kind of power?...”

The same can be said in this scenario. The most recent chapter also tells us that Vegeta and Goku are equals too.

The difference is that we know Goku was suppressed against the Ginyus, so we have to assume he defended with those bursts as well in order to survive. Vegeta was in a completely different form when he defended, not suppressed.

 

[Future Warrior]

The difference is that we know Goku was suppressed against the Ginyus, so we have to assume he defended with those bursts as well in order to survive. Vegeta was in a completely different form when he defended, not suppressed.

Suppressed...different form...same concept brotha. Nothing disproves Vegeta using Blue when defending.

 

[Void]

SS2 Vegeta fucks everything up by pummeling SS Black, after Trunks had stated Base Black > SS3 Goku and that Black had gotten stronger since he had gone back to the past. lol

Vegeta using his rage SS2 is somewhat plausible, but seems unlikely because nothing suggested he kept that boost. You could reach and say Goku was holding back against Trunks, but why would he? I guess it could make it all a lot easier.

The only other thing that really leaves is Vegeta's training with Trunks in the gravity room.

Goku vs Trunks - 1
SS - 2.5
SS2 - 5
SS3 - 10
SSG - 25
SSB - 50
CSSB - 250

Trunks - 1
SS - 2.5
SS2 - 5
SS2.5 - 10

Base Black (Trunks description in present) - 11.5
Base Black that Vegeta fights (Trunks said he got stronger since he left) - 13
Initial Super Saiyan Black - 19.5
Zenkai - 250 lol
Rose - 300

Zamas - 8

Vegeta post Gravity - 4.5
SS - 11.25
SS2 - 22.5
SSG - 112.5
SSB - 225
post RoSaT - 10
SSG - 250
SSB - 500

Goku w/ Mafuba RESOLVE - 10
SSG - 250
SSB - 500
CSSB - 2,500

Merged Zamas - 2,500

Vegetto - 550
SS - 1,375
SS2 - 2,750
SSG - 13,750
SSB - 27,500

Beerus - 25,000

 

[Pyro]

The difference is that we know Goku was suppressed against the Ginyus, so we have to assume he defended with those bursts as well in order to survive. Vegeta was in a completely different form when he defended, not suppressed.

Suppressed...different form...same concept brotha. Nothing disproves Vegeta using Blue when defending.

No, it's not. One we are forced to come to a conclusion on, the other we are given no such reason to believe other than "because." Nothing disproves Vegeta using Blue to defend (although the one statement we have implies otherwise), but you first have to actually give support for why that's a viable option, which you did with the Ginyu thing but not here.

 

[ahill1]

Goku-Black beat Trunks up badly at the beginning of the saga. That was shown.

Trunks could still push him back a little with the usage of strategy. I think the fight is tangible with a ~85% , honestly.

How did he push him back? He could distract him a bit enough to escape, but even then that was mostly just because Goku-Black was an idiot and was toying.

Actually Black struggled somewhat to defend himself from Trunks' Masenko, as well as felt pain from Trunks' punch tp the gut, despite recovering himself fast. Whereas he couldn't do much despite this and was later knocked out to base when Black used Shunkan Ido, I think the fight works well with a 85%~88% gap considering that's already in dominance terriotry, and Trunks didn't feel so hopeless as against present number 18 for instance, who just blocked his sword attack without exerting herself in any way.