Barnacles, help me out with this.

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Numbers screws the power scaling.

 

[Future Warrior]

No, it's not. One we are forced to come to a conclusion on, the other we are given no such reason to believe other than "because." Nothing disproves Vegeta using Blue to defend (although the one statement we have implies otherwise), but you first have to actually give support for why that's a viable option, which you did with the Ginyu thing but not here.

As I said before, Goku and Vegeta were stated to be equals twice in the recent chapter. Unless Goku went into the RoSaT again, there is no reason for him to have made much gains considering we know he's been slacking off, plus training on earth was shown to bring minimal gains since Beerus said that they only slowly improved in-between Champa arc and FT arc. We are not ''forced'' to come to any conclusion.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Numbers screws the power scaling.

Power scaling screws the powerscaling.

 

[Pyro]

No, it's not. One we are forced to come to a conclusion on, the other we are given no such reason to believe other than "because." Nothing disproves Vegeta using Blue to defend (although the one statement we have implies otherwise), but you first have to actually give support for why that's a viable option, which you did with the Ginyu thing but not here.

As I said before, Goku and Vegeta were stated to be equals twice in the recent chapter. Unless Goku went into the RoSaT again, there is no reason for him to have made much gains considering we know he's been slacking off, plus training on earth was shown to bring minimal gains since Beerus said that they only slowly improved in-between Champa arc and FT arc. We are not ''forced'' to come to any conclusion.

I agree with that last sentence. Good on you.

 

[Pyro]

I just thought of something! :what I don't think there's a hard multiplier for God or Blue. Vegeta doesn't have Super Saiyan 3 but he ends up just as strong as Goku in the godly forms. Or maybe God and Blue are simply a separate branch from Super Saiyan completely, so they don't depend on any prior transformations?!

By the way, I didn't mean to be rude in my responses. You're a good man, FW. Just saying.

 

[ahill1]

I don't think the lack of SSJ3 would prevent Vegeta from being Goku's equal in the Godly forms. God and Blue are mulpliers of the base form, therefore if Vegeta base = Goku base, then they will also be the same in Blue.

 

[Future Warrior]

I just thought of something! :what I don't think there's a hard multiplier for God or Blue. Vegeta doesn't have Super Saiyan 3 but he ends up just as strong as Goku in the godly forms. Or maybe God and Blue are simply a separate branch from Super Saiyan completely, so they don't depend on any prior transformations?!

By the way, I didn't mean to be rude in my responses. You're a good man, FW. Just saying.

No offense was ever taken lol.

 

[Pyro]

I don't think the lack of SSJ3 would prevent Vegeta from being Goku's equal in the Godly forms. God and Blue are mulpliers of the base form, therefore if Vegeta base = Goku base, then they will also be the same in Blue.

Yah, but if God and Blue are entirely reliant on the base form, then conceivably, another transformation could usurp them. Like SSJ2 Vegeta.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Trunks could still push him back a little with the usage of strategy. I think the fight is tangible with a ~85% , honestly.

How did he push him back? He could distract him a bit enough to escape, but even then that was mostly just because Goku-Black was an idiot and was toying.

Actually Black struggled somewhat to defend himself from Trunks' Masenko, as well as felt pain from Trunks' punch tp the gut, despite recovering himself fast. Whereas he couldn't do much despite this and was later knocked out to base when Black used Shunkan Ido, I think the fight works well with a 85%~88% gap considering that's already in dominance terriotry, and Trunks didn't feel so hopeless as against present number 18 for instance, who just blocked his sword attack without exerting herself in any way.

Maybe I was remembering wrong. *shrugs*

 

[ahill1]

Here's the fight, FH:

Spoiler

You're right that Black did dominate Trunks who couldn't do much outside a few attacks, but I just don't see it as a whooping 1.5x+ gap.

 

[Pyro]

I had another thought that I think someone else already brought up, but it's making me use my noodle more.

Whis said Vegeta was at less than 10% of Blue's "usual power." Could it be that:

Base - 1
SSB (usual strength) - 100
SSB - 1,000

Blue is very powerful, but it drains stamina at a ridiculous rate. So when a user first transforms, they're at 100%, but it drops quickly. In Vegeta's case, he transformed twice, which produced a very steep decline in Blue's accessible power. Whis understands the form better, so he came to the conclusion that the Saiyans are normally only using a rather small amount of its full potential. Vegeta realized this in the RoSaT and made it so he didn't encounter that problem by swapping with God, and Goku went further and completely overcame the drain by absorbing it into his physical body.

I know there are holes in this theory, but it might help to make Blue a more formidable transformation, and lengthen gaps between certain characters.

 

[Future Warrior]

That's what I always went with, except I believe they purposely choose not to go FP due to it sapping pretty much all of your stamina near instantaneously.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So the bursts Vegeta used were on pair with MSSJB Goku and Merged Zamasu? I can see that. How much you guys think Vegeta increased after BBQ ROAST if that's the case?

 

[Pyro]

I'm not sure. That's one of the things I didn't think made much sense with this theory. If SSJB Vegeta post-RoSaT could be equal to CSSJB Goku/Merged Zamasu, it seems odd to say Goku is the ONLY one that can keep fighting. Trunks could easily heal Vegeta and then he could use the swapping strategy.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It's not that hard.

Spoiler

Super Saiyan=[50xbase]
Super Saiyan 2=[2xSuper Saiyan]/[100xbase]
Super Saiyan 3=[4xSuper Saiyan 2]/[400xbase]
Quake of Fury=[1,000,000xbase]/[20,000xSuper Saiyan]
Super Saiyan God=[1,500,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue=[1.12xSuper Saiyan God]/[1,680,000xbase]
Super Saiyan Blue(Full power)=[1.45xSuper Saiyan God]/[2,175,000xbase]
Super Saiyan(Goku Black)=[1,700xbase]
Super Saiyan Rose=[1,930xbase]
Strengthened Super Saiyan 2=[7.9xSuper Saiyan]/[395xbase]
Fusion multiplier[Vegito]=A+B(900,000)
Fusion multiplier[Merged Zamasu]=A+B(1.1)

Base Goku Black: 21,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks: 40,800,000,000
Super Saiyan Future Trunks: 2,040,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks: 4,080,000,000,000
Strengthened Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks: 16,116,000,000,000

Future Trunks arc Base Goku: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku: 2,037,500,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 4,075,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 16,300,000,000,000
Super Saiyan God Goku: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Goku: 68,460,000,000,000,000

Future Trunks arc Base Vegeta: 40,750,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta(Quake of fury): 40,750,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta: 68,460,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Goku Black: 35,700,000,000,000,000

Future Zamasu: 4,000,000,000,000

Base Goku Black(Zenkai): 41,500,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku Black: 70,550,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 80,095,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan God Vegeta: 61,125,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power burst): 88,631,250,000,000,000

Merged Zamasu: 88,104,500,000,000,000

Base Vegito: 73,350,000,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Vegito: 123,228,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000

Beerus(Holding back): 88,000,000,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(Full power): 88,631,250,000,000,000

Beerus(Full power): 100,000,000,000,000,000

Just need to stop trying to squash Vegito and beerus together as if they're rivals despite that not even being a direct implication along with it being contradicted by toriyamas own scale to boot.
Also not sure what's up with the weird multipliers but if you went with the correct ones stated for the basic ssj forms you likely wouldn't have a problem.

 

[Void]

The swapping strategy doesn't really make any sense if Blue isn't near full power.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm not sure. That's one of the things I didn't think made much sense with this theory. If SSJB Vegeta post-RoSaT could be equal to CSSJB Goku/Merged Zamasu, it seems odd to say Goku is the ONLY one that can keep fighting. Trunks could easily heal Vegeta and then he could use the swapping strategy.

The thing is though is that the strategy was effective against Black due to FP Blue being far above his level meaning he can output more damage when switching forms. With Merged Zamasu not with only would he only cause minimal-moderate amounts of damage to him with each blow, he would eventually not be able to keep switching between the forms considering the fusion was still standing against CSSB Goku for like 15+ minutes. CSSB is much more effective than FP Blue in bursts when your opponent is your equal.