Base Goku (DBS) vs SSj3 Goku (Z)

[Future Warrior]

Manga only. Do you guys think he's absorbed the SSG into his Base and can 1-shot here, or do you think RoF got retconned and isn't that strong anymore?

 

[p123]

Nothing suggests Base Goku is anything special in the manga.

 

[Keedounan]

Manga only. Do you guys think he's absorbed the SSG into his Base and can 1-shot here, or do you think RoF got retconned and isn't that strong anymore?

Base Goku gets slaughtered imo.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku doesn't differ at all throughout any of the media. The movies, manga and anime all supplement each other, so base Goku from DBS would win.

 

[Keedounan]

Goku doesn't differ at all throughout any of the media. The movies, manga and anime all supplement each other, so base Goku from DBS would win.

In that case, why the DBS manga and anime are so different ?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku doesn't differ at all throughout any of the media. The movies, manga and anime all supplement each other, so base Goku from DBS would win.

In that case, why the DBS manga and anime are so different ?

I don't know what you're talking about since you haven't listed any differences. If you're talking about why the flow of events or the way the story is told differs, that's obviously because the manga and anime have different writers.

 

[Keedounan]

Goku doesn't differ at all throughout any of the media. The movies, manga and anime all supplement each other, so base Goku from DBS would win.

In that case, why the DBS manga and anime are so different ?

I don't know what you're talking about since you haven't listed any differences. If you're talking about why the flow of events or the way the story is told differs, that's obviously because the manga and anime have different writers.

For example, Present Zamaau could hold his own against SSJ2 Goku (post-SSJG). In the manga, he had trouble against Kibito.

In that case, why Base Goku's strength wouldn't be different from his Anime counterpart, especially when there is no indication that it's the case ?

 

[Papasmurf]

Base Goku one shots imo.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

In that case, why the DBS manga and anime are so different ?

I don't know what you're talking about since you haven't listed any differences. If you're talking about why the flow of events or the way the story is told differs, that's obviously because the manga and anime have different writers.

For example, Present Zamaau could hold his own against SSJ2 Goku (post-SSJG). In the manga, he had trouble against Kibito.

In that case, why Base Goku's strength wouldn't be different from his Anime counterpart, especially when there is no indication that it's the case ?

There is no indication of Goku's strength being different since he has identical performances against the same characters in both media.
There isn't really any indication that Zamasu is different in the manga and anime either. He contended with SSJ2 Goku in the anime to an extent and he overwhelmed SSJ Goku in the manga. All Kibito did was keep Zamasu at bay with magical abilities. They weren't competitive in any sense power wise.

 

[Keedounan]

There is no indication of Goku's strength being different since he has identical performances against the same characters in both media.

And this is where you're wrong.

1)In the anime, Goku one-shotted Trunks as SSJ3. In the manga, Goku had to use the SSJG to win.

2)In the anime, Future Zamasu could fight pretty well with SSJB Goku. In the manga, he's completely overwhelmed by SSJG Goku.

There isn't really any indication that Zamasu is different in the manga and anime either. He contended with SSJ2 Goku in the anime to an extent and he overwhelmed SSJ Goku in the manga.

Nope. Future Zamasu was the one who overwhelmed SSJ Goku, not the Present one. Future Zamasu > Present Zamasu.

All Kibito did was keep Zamasu at bay with magical abilities. They weren't competitive in any sense power wise.

He still was able to block Zamasu's hits. And Zamasu thought highly of Kibito's skills. A far cry from his Anime counterpart.

 

[Void]

The manga and anime are different but the same. They're both aiming to arrive at the same destination, but they take different roads to get there. Discussing those differences is part of what gives people the chance to share their interpretations. I'm not sure why you take issue with that--you're here to discuss DB, aren't you?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

And this is where you're wrong.

1)In the anime, Goku one-shotted Trunks as SSJ3. In the manga, Goku had to use the SSJG to win.

2)In the anime, Future Zamasu could fight pretty well with SSJB Goku. In the manga, he's completely overwhelmed by SSJG Goku.

1. Goku decided to use SSJG in the manga, nothing implies that he couldn't win without it.

2. Not really seeing it. Dodging SSB Goku doesn't put Zamasu close to him since he also dodged SSB Goku in the manga, yet is trash to him. SSB Goku knocked him out in one hit and Zamasu is weaker than SSJ2 Future Trunks in both media.

Nope. Future Zamasu was the one who overwhelmed SSJ Goku, not the Present one. Future Zamasu > Present Zamasu.

There isn't any indication that they're any different power wise.

He still was able to block Zamasu's hits. And Zamasu thought highly of Kibito's skills. A far cry from his Anime counterpart.

Piccolo was able to block Frost's hits. Doesn't mean much. Zamasu can have respect for the skills of a fellow god. Doesn't mean that his power isn't far superior.

 

[Keedounan]

1. Goku decided to use SSJG in the manga, nothing implies that he couldn't win without it.

So, you're implying that Goku could have stomped Trunks in SSJ3, yet he chose to do so with a stronger form ? Why ? It doesn't make sense if you ask me...

AND it was actually pointed out by Vegeta that Trunks was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. In the anime, Black > Trunks, yet he could only hold his own against SSJ2 Goku.

2. Not really seeing it. Dodging SSB Goku doesn't put Zamasu close to him since he also dodged SSB Goku in the manga, yet is trash to him.

Dude, no. Future Zamasu wasn't simply dodging attacks. He could actually fight SSJB Goku blow for blow. Just look at this: https://youtu.be/QLKA7M4LEZM

A far cry from their fight in the manga, in which Zamasu was just completely outclassed.

There isn't any indication that they're any different power wise.

Look at the video above. Goku clearly disagrees with this.

Piccolo was able to block Frost's hits. Doesn't mean much.

This case was clearly PIS. Using that as an example won't amount to much.

Zamasu can have respect for the skills of a fellow god.

So you assume that he was lying for the sake of respect ?

Doesn't mean that his power isn't far superior.

We're not simply talking about a 2x difference here. This is literally several magnitudes of difference if we assume that you are right about Anime = Manga. And Zamasu's performance clearly didn't left me with this vibe. That would be more like Goku SSJ3 VS Beerus.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Base Goku did get stronger but not on the level of his SSG form from BoG. More like his base form is equal to Ultimate Gohan IMO.

 

[Jeff Styles]

I don't think he absorbs the SSJG power as he drops out of the form by being exhausted thus ending the fight and Beerus never stated he did. He trains with Whis to surpass his SSJG self. So Base Goku annihilated.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So, you're implying that Goku could have stomped Trunks in SSJ3, yet he chose to do so with a stronger form ? Why ? It doesn't make sense if you ask me...
AND it was actually pointed out by Vegeta that Trunks was as strong as SSJ3 Goku. In the anime, Black > Trunks, yet he could only hold his own against SSJ2 Goku.

It was never stated that Goku couldn't win with SSJ3, just that Trunks powered up almost as much as Goku did. The only thing that changed was Goku's course of action. He just decided to stick it out in SSJ3 in the anime.
Black was holding back as stated.

Dude, no. Future Zamasu wasn't simply dodging attacks. He could actually fight SSJB Goku blow for blow. Just look at this: https://youtu.be/QLKA7M4LEZM

A far cry from their fight in the manga, in which Zamasu was just completely outclassed.

He's the same because he's still weaker than SSJ2 FT Trunks, just like in the manga whom isn't anywhere near Blue. Goku one shotted Zamsau on multiple occasions.

Look at the video above. Goku clearly disagrees with this.

Where does he imply that Future Zamasu is much stronger than his Present counterpart? If you're referring to the "something feels different"
, I don't see how that refers to strength. That just foreshadows Future Zamasu's immortality.

This case was clearly PIS. Using that as an example won't amount to much.

SSJ2 FT Trunks outdid Black in a sword duel, yet he is repeatedly shown to be nothing to him power wise. Nappa(4,000) could clash briefly with Goku(8,000). I don't use PIS as an excuse. Weaker fighters have shown on occasion to be capable of briefly keeping up with opponents much stronger than them likely due to focus+skill, not necessarily because their powers are close.

Zamasu may be able to keep up with SSB Goku due to focus+skill 1/10 times, but 9/10 times, he's going to get one shotted.

So you assume that he was lying for the sake of respect ?

We're not simply talking about a 2x difference here. This is literally several magnitudes of difference if we assume that you are right about Anime = Manga. And Zamasu's performance clearly didn't left me with this vibe. That would be more like Goku SSJ3 VS Beerus.

No, Zamasu wasn't lying, but that doesn't mean that Kibito is comparable to him. Kibito is skilled in his own right. It isn't any different from Beerus and deeming SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks as impressive.

 

[Keedounan]

It was never stated that Goku couldn't win with SSJ3, just that Trunks powered up almost as much as Goku did.

His performance, as well as Vegeta's statement (SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku), told me another story. Feat > Statement > Your opinion.

The only thing that changed was Goku's course of action. He just decided to stick it out in SSJ3 in the anime.

And in the anime, Goku actually one-shotted Trunks with little effort. In the manga, he had more trouble and had to use the SSJG to actually beat Trunks. A bit much for a sparring fight, isn't it ?

Black was holding back as stated.

And despite Trunks stating earlier that Black >= SSJ3 Goku, after the fight, Trunks later stated that Black was only slightly stronger in the future, which either means that:

* he overestimated Black, which I think.
* or that he could sense his full power without actually witnessing him using said power, which is impossible.

He's the same because he's still weaker than SSJ2 FT Trunks, just like in the manga whom isn't anywhere near Blue. Goku one shotted Zamsau on multiple occasions.

I'm sure that you have something to back it up, huh ? Like the time he somehow overpowered Future Zamasu right after he kicked away SSJR Goku Black...oh wait, PIS as well.

And most of the time Goku "one-shotted" him was because of his own carelessness due to his immortality. Plus, isn't it convenient to ignore Goku's statement ("something is different from last time", when he doesn't manage to overpower him with his SSJB) and Zamasu being able to fight off SSJ Blue Goku on a regular basis ?

Where does he imply that Future Zamasu is much stronger than his Present counterpart? If you're referring to the "something feels different"
, I don't see how that refers to strength. That just foreshadows Future Zamasu's immortality.

Based on him blocking a punch ? It's more relevant to power/durability than immortality/regeneration if you ask me...and even assuming you are right, it doesn't explain why Zamasu is always capable to keep up with Goku.

SSJ2 FT Trunks outdid Black in a sword duel, yet he is repeatedly shown to be nothing to him power wise.

He also outperformed SSJB Goku against Zamasu. And yet you use that as an evidence that SSJ2-tier characters > Future Zamasu ?

Nappa(4,000) could clash briefly with Goku(8,000).

Feat from the manga > Statement from a guidebook. Therefore, I personally don't consider Nappa to be at 4,000.

I don't use PIS as an excuse. Weaker fighters have shown on occasion to be capable of briefly keeping up with opponents much stronger than them likely due to focus+skill, not necessarily because their powers are close.

And yet, you think that SSJ2-tier characters can beat Future Zamasu, despite the fact that he was shown to be similar to SSJB-tier characters in raw power on a regular basis ?

Zamasu may be able to keep up with SSB Goku due to focus+skill 1/10 times, but 9/10 times, he's going to get one shotted.

Really ?

* Zamasu blocks a punch from SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/BothWearyBilby
* Zamasu holds SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/HeartyBlaringBluefish
* Zamasu can keep up with SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/DigitalScaredEquine and https://gfycat.com/ImperfectBlackLangur

I do admit that Zamasu is consistently shown to be weaker. However, Zamasu is at least able to perform well against SSJB-tier characters.

In the manga...not quite. He's consistently considered as a complete joke by Goku, and treated as such in his fight.

Future Zamasu are clearly not portrayed the same way in anime and manga.

No, Zamasu wasn't lying, but that doesn't mean that Kibito is comparable to him. Kibito is skilled in his own right. It isn't any different from Beerus and deeming SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Trunks as impressive.

...I guess that you got me there.

As for your general Anime = Manga, Toriyama writes a script. Toyotaro and Toei Animation use said script and interpret it in their own way, which is why there is so many differences, even though the story is overall the same. Because of that, there is no real proof that the powerscaling in Anime and Manga are the same.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

His performance, as well as Vegeta's statement (SSJ2 Trunks = SSJ3 Goku), told me another story. Feat > Statement > Your opinion.

What you're saying now is nothing more than your opinion. Vegeta stated that Trunks powered up almost as much as Goku and there was nothing saying that Goku couldn't win without going SSJG.

And in the anime, Goku actually one-shotted Trunks with little effort. In the manga, he had more trouble and had to use the SSJG to actually beat Trunks. A bit much for a sparring fight, isn't it ?

SSJ3 Goku didn't fight Trunks in the manga and Goku only used SSJG due to getting carried away.

And despite Trunks stating earlier that Black >= SSJ3 Goku, after the fight, Trunks later stated that Black was only slightly stronger in the future, which either means that:

* he overestimated Black, which I think.
* or that he could sense his full power without actually witnessing him using said power, which is impossible.

I'm not seeing the problem here. He powered up multiple times, with his final power up letting him smack SSJ2 Goku away with ease, so his final power up was slightly weaker than the power he used to fight Trunks.

I'm sure that you have something to back it up, huh ? Like the time he somehow overpowered Future Zamasu right after he kicked away SSJR Goku Black...oh wait, PIS as well.

And most of the time Goku "one-shotted" him was because of his own carelessness due to his immortality. Plus, isn't it convenient to ignore Goku's statement ("something is different from last time", when he doesn't manage to overpower him with his SSJB) and Zamasu being able to fight off SSJ Blue Goku on a regular basis ?

Based on him blocking a punch ? It's more relevant to power/durability than immortality/regeneration if you ask me...and even assuming you are right, it doesn't explain why Zamasu is always capable to keep up with Goku.

You ask for evidence but label everything that I say as PIS. I posted the evidence, and you rejected it with an invalid explanation. Goku didn't say "something's different" based on Zamasu clashing with his fist. He felt something different in Zamasu's ki, which as I said before, is a foreshadowing to his immortality. There is nothing in the story that points to Future Zamasu being any different from Present Zamasu power wise.

If you're claiming that SSB Goku and Future Zamasu are comparable, then that means that he's comparable to Black, which he clearly isn't. SSB Goku knocked him out with a single backhand and no, nothing implies that he was being careless there.

He also outperformed SSJB Goku against Zamasu. And yet you use that as an evidence that SSJ2-tier characters > Future Zamasu ?

That didn't happen and that idea goes against the established hierarchy. SSB Goku is comparable to SSJR Black, and they are on a pedestal far above everyone else. Unless you're trying to claim SSJ2 Trunks>SSB Goku.

Feat from the manga > Statement from a guidebook. Therefore, I personally don't consider Nappa to be at 4,000.

That's just your interpretation of the feats, which doesn't mean anything officially. The Daizenshuu as an omniscient narrator void of bias puts Nappa as 4,000, so that's his official level.

And yet, you think that SSJ2-tier characters can beat Future Zamasu, despite the fact that he was shown to be similar to SSJB-tier characters in raw power on a regular basis ?

Trunks "killed" Zamasu 1v1, so he obviously isn't SSB level, just like Trunks wasn't on Black's level.

SSJR Black>=SSB Goku & Vegeta>>>>SSJ2 Trunks>Zamasu

Really ?

* Zamasu blocks a punch from SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/BothWearyBilby
* Zamasu holds SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/HeartyBlaringBluefish
* Zamasu can keep up with SSJB Goku: https://gfycat.com/DigitalScaredEquine and https://gfycat.com/ImperfectBlackLangur

I do admit that Zamasu is consistently shown to be weaker. However, Zamasu is at least able to perform well against SSJB-tier characters.

In the manga...not quite. He's consistently considered as a complete joke by Goku, and treated as such in his fight.

Future Zamasu are clearly not portrayed the same way in anime and manga.

*So what?
*#16 was able to hold Perfect Cell.
*He can physically keep up with him in the manga.

The general power hierarchy is the same in both versions with Zamasu being the weakest out of everybody. Trunks outdoing Black in a sword duel doesn't make him stronger than his manga counterpart. We know that it can happen based on it actually happening, but 9 times out of 10, Black is going to beat him easily. Same with Zamasu and SSB Goku.

...I guess that you got me there.

As for your general Anime = Manga, Toriyama writes a script. Toyotaro and Toei Animation use said script and interpret it in their own way, which is why there is so many differences, even though the story is overall the same. Because of that, there is no real proof that the powerscaling in Anime and Manga are the same.

Doesn't make any sense. If the script says "Zamasu fights Goku and loses a fight to Trunks", Zamasu is going to be weaker than both characters in both media. The power of the characters compared to each other doesn't differ.

You would always get Goku>Trunks>Zamasu

 

[Keedounan]

What you're saying now is nothing more than your opinion.

Right. Because using an objective fight and a statement from another character is just my opinion...oh wait.

Vegeta stated that Trunks powered up almost as much as Goku and there was nothing saying that Goku couldn't win without going SSJG.

And there was nothing saying that Goku could win without going SSJG. See ? I can do the same. But in the end, I am backed up with both a fight and a statement from the manga, while you have nothing. Can't really pretend to be more objective than me on that matter...

SSJ3 Goku didn't fight Trunks in the manga

*just checked*

True. The statement still apply, though. Goku SSJ3 = SSJ2 Trunks in the manga, until you manage to prove otherwise.

And despite Trunks stating earlier that Black >= SSJ3 Goku, after the fight, Trunks later stated that Black was only slightly stronger in the future, which either means that:

* he overestimated Black, which I think.
* or that he could sense his full power without actually witnessing him using said power, which is impossible.

I'm not seeing the problem here. He powered up multiple times, with his final power up letting him smack SSJ2 Goku away with ease, so his final power up was slightly weaker than the power he used to fight Trunks.

Here is the problem: Trunks made the statement SSJ3 Goku = Goku Black based on his own fights against him. Thing is, SSJ2 Goku manage to hold his own against Goku Black. Then, Trunks stated that Goku Black was just slightly above SSJ2 Goku.

Unless you think that SSJ3 Goku is just slightly stronger than his SSJ2 form, my interpreation is that Trunks either overestimated Black or underestimated Goku.

You ask for evidence but label everything that I say as PIS.

Because two things you said = everything in your post ? Right.

I posted the evidence, and you rejected it with an invalid explanation.

Invalid for you. If you think that it's normal that SSJ2 Trunks is able to perform better than SSJB Goku did in his fight against Future Zamasu, or that he's somehow able to fight better against SSJR Black than he ever did against his base form, you're free to think that. Personally, I think that this is PIS.

Goku didn't say "something's different" based on Zamasu clashing with his fist. He felt something different in Zamasu's ki, which as I said before, is a foreshadowing to his immortality.

Oh really ? Then why Toei Animation bothered to use a flashback of the exact same scene, but with a different outcome ?

There is nothing in the story that points to Future Zamasu being any different from Present Zamasu power wise.

Indeed, because Zamasu who managed to keep up with SSJB Goku doesn't suggest it...oh wait.

If you're claiming that SSB Goku and Future Zamasu are comparable, then that means that he's comparable to Black

Black > Goku. If Zamasu couldn't beat Goku, he'd obviously get stomped by Black. I wonder what you were trying to argue here...

SSB Goku knocked him out with a single backhand

Yes...and several others blows, from an enraged Goku far stronger than before. But obviously, you took

and no, nothing implies that he was being careless there.

He wasn't exactly on guard either, considering how surprised he was by Goku suddenly appearing before him.

That didn't happen

Oh really ? Compare this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD5EeVWsPf0

With this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2BofNOFLCc

What happened in video 1: Zamasu managed to fight evenly with Goku, then outmaneuver him.
What happened in video 2: Zamasu could hold his own, but Trunks eventually overwhelm him and would have killed him if it wasn't for his immortality.

So, am I wrong ?

and that idea goes against the established hierarchy. SSB Goku is comparable to SSJR Black, and they are on a pedestal far above everyone else. Unless you're trying to claim SSJ2 Trunks>SSB Goku.

This is why I kept telling you that using SSJ2 Trunks' performance against Zamasu to say that he's SSJ2-tier character is PIS. But of course, you wouldn't listen.

That's just your interpretation of the feats, which doesn't mean anything officially. The Daizenshuu as an omniscient narrator void of bias puts Nappa as 4,000, so that's his official level.

The only one that is an omniscient narrator void of bias is Toriyama, the actual author. Official =/= Right.

Example: they said that Goten = Gohan in power level. I say that they're clearly not on the same level. Who is right ? Them, the "official, omnisicent narrator void of bias" ? Or me, who actually read their fights against each other, compared their feats, as well as Gohan having the SSJ2 on top of that ?

Plus, I brought up a statement from Vegeta, clearly stating that SSJ3 Goku = SSJ2 Trunks, but you've implied that Goku was simply holding back his power, despite the fact that it was never suggested in the first place. You're one to talk about bias.

And as I said, Feat from the manga > Statement from guidebook, and this will never change.

Trunks "killed" Zamasu 1vs1, so he obviously isn't SSB level

And Trunks is the first person who "killed" Zamasu 1vs1, while Goku couldn't and was outmaneuvered the first time, so Trunks > Zamasu.

Just like Trunks wasn't on Black's level.

*So what?

Feat > Your opinion. As usual.

*#16 was able to hold Perfect Cell.

Contrary to Goku and Trunks, Cell wasn't in pain nor trying to escape.

*He can physically keep up with him in the manga.

Nope. Zamasu simply dodged a hit. That's the best he did in the manga. Afterwards, Goku casually dodged all of his attacks, before kicking his butt. Did I forgot to mention that he told him point blank that he's going to beat him up ? And he actually turned back to SSJ, because Zamasu was that weak compared to him ? Their first fight in the manga was completely different from the one in Anime.

The general power hierarchy is the same in both versions with Zamasu being the weakest out of everybody.

Clearly not.

Trunks outdoing Black in a sword duel doesn't make him stronger than his manga counterpart.

Trunks manga = SSJ3 Goku. No matter what you'll tell, until you bring up a statement/feat which suggest that Goku was holding back, then Vegeta remains uncontradicted. The fact that Goku used the SSJG to finish the fight doesn't make things better for you.

Doesn't make any sense. If the script says "Zamasu fights Goku and loses a fight to Trunks", Zamasu is going to be weaker than both characters in both media.

Key word beign if.

The power of the characters compared to each other doesn't differ.

Yeah, because SSJB Goku VS Future Zamasu isn't different.

You would always get Goku>Trunks>Zamasu

Or Trunks > Goku > Zamasu based on their fight in the Anime, which you use to say that Trunks > Zamasu anyways. PIS or not ? If it's not, use the whole fight instead of picking what pleases you. If it is, then you can stop pretending that Zamasu is SSJ2-tier, because besides Trunks "killing" Zamasu, the latter did nothing, but performing SSJB-level feats, consistently.

And I prefer to use what is consistent than what happened once as a basis for my arguments.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Right. Because using an objective fight and a statement from another character is just my opinion...oh wait.

And there was nothing saying that Goku could win without going SSJG. See ? I can do the same. But in the end, I am backed up with both a fight and a statement from the manga, while you have nothing. Can't really pretend to be more objective than me on that matter...

*just checked*

True. The statement still apply, though. Goku SSJ3 = SSJ2 Trunks in the manga, until you manage to prove otherwise.

Do you know the definition of "almost"? Trunks powered up almost as much as Goku did, so Goku was still superior, but Trunks wasn't far behind. Yeah, I'm being more objective than you. That isn't really up for contention.

And despite Trunks stating earlier that Black >= SSJ3 Goku, after the fight, Trunks later stated that Black was only slightly stronger in the future, which either means that:

* he overestimated Black, which I think.
* or that he could sense his full power without actually witnessing him using said power, which is impossible.

Here is the problem: Trunks made the statement SSJ3 Goku = Goku Black based on his own fights against him. Thing is, SSJ2 Goku manage to hold his own against Goku Black. Then, Trunks stated that Goku Black was just slightly above SSJ2 Goku.

Unless you think that SSJ3 Goku is just slightly stronger than his SSJ2 form, my interpreation is that Trunks either overestimated Black or underestimated Goku.

No, it means that the maximum power that Black during that fight(which was >SSJ2 Goku), was slightly weaker than the level he used against Trunks.

You ask for evidence but label everything that I say as PIS.

Invalid for you. If you think that it's normal that SSJ2 Trunks is able to perform better than SSJB Goku did in his fight against Future Zamasu, or that he's somehow able to fight better against SSJR Black than he ever did against his base form, you're free to think that. Personally, I think that this is PIS.

Nah, it just means that weaker fighters can be relevant against stronger fighters occasionally. Don't know where you got the idea that trading blows means that 2 fighters are dead even in power.

Oh really ? Then why Toei Animation bothered to use a flashback of the exact same scene, but with a different outcome ?

What are you rambling on about? There is no "different outcome". It just shows a scene of Goku fighting Present Zamasu with Goku wondering what feels different about his ki this time. It's his immortality. This isn't hard to understand. There was no noted strength difference between both Zamasus because there is none.

Indeed, because Zamasu who managed to keep up with SSJB Goku doesn't suggest it...oh wait.

No it doesn't, since there isn't anything implying that Present Zamasu can't do the exact same thing. There is no implied difference between them.

Black > Goku. If Zamasu couldn't beat Goku, he'd obviously get stomped by Black. I wonder what you were trying to argue here...

Yes...and several others blows, from an enraged Goku far stronger than before. But obviously, you took


He wasn't exactly on guard either, considering how surprised he was by Goku suddenly appearing before him.

Black and the SSB's are on par power wise as stated. Rage boosted Goku needed more effort to take down Black than Zamasu, whom was equal to his prior SSB self in terms of strength.

No, the off-guard excuse doesn't make any sense. A casual backhand was strong enough to knock him out and the same wouldn't have happened to Black.

Oh really ? Compare this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eD5EeVWsPf0

With this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2BofNOFLCc

What happened in video 1: Zamasu managed to fight evenly with Goku, then outmaneuver him.
What happened in video 2: Zamasu could hold his own, but Trunks eventually overwhelm him and would have killed him if it wasn't for his immortality.

So, am I wrong ?

This is why I kept telling you that using SSJ2 Trunks' performance against Zamasu to say that he's SSJ2-tier character is PIS. But of course, you wouldn't listen.

Yeah you're wrong. You're being so biased that you're not making sense. If Trunks beats Zamasu in a fight, but is trash to Black whom is Goku's stated equal, then you get SSJR Black=SSB Goku>Trunks>Zamasu, but you keep on harping on and on about Zamasu trading blows with Goku as if it puts them at comparable levels. Did Goku lose to Zamasu? No obviously not, so you're not making any sense.

The only one that is an omniscient narrator void of bias is Toriyama, the actual author. Official =/= Right.

Example: they said that Goten = Gohan in power level. I say that they're clearly not on the same level. Who is right ? Them, the "official, omnisicent narrator void of bias" ? Or me, who actually read their fights against each other, compared their feats, as well as Gohan having the SSJ2 on top of that ?

Plus, I brought up a statement from Vegeta, clearly stating that SSJ3 Goku = SSJ2 Trunks, but you've implied that Goku was simply holding back his power, despite the fact that it was never suggested in the first place. You're one to talk about bias.

And as I said, Feat from the manga > Statement from guidebook, and this will never change.

Never said that Goku held back against Trunks in SSJ3, but keep strawmanning. I don't want to hear about your own personal criteria.

Official material>Your opinion, no matter what. The Daizenshuu doesn't have bias, but you do so nah. Nappa isn't stated to be higher than 4,000 in the manga and as far as I know, I don't remember it being stated that weaker fighters can't trade blows with stronger fighters.

And Trunks is the first person who "killed" Zamasu 1vs1, while Goku couldn't and was outmaneuvered the first time, so Trunks > Zamasu.

And? Trunks beat Zamasu and Goku did not during their brief scuffle. None of that leads to Trunks and Zamasu being comparable to Goku.

Feat > Your opinion. As usual.

So why don't you stop yapping about PIS and actually use them? Since you seem to have this weird idea that trading blows means that 2 fighters are close in power.
I'm talking about using them correctly, not cherrypicking a single fight scene, jumping the gun on it's significance while ignoring everything else that happened.
Why would you even say something this idiotic while doing the exact same thing you're accusing me of?

Contrary to Goku and Trunks, Cell wasn't in pain nor trying to escape.

You don't have any way to prove what you just said here. Cell didn't want to be restrained. If your saying that Cell wasn't trying to escape, then I can just claim that neither Goku or Trunks tried to escape.

Nope. Zamasu simply dodged a hit. That's the best he did in the manga. Afterwards, Goku casually dodged all of his attacks, before kicking his butt. Did I forgot to mention that he told him point blank that he's going to beat him up ? And he actually turned back to SSJ, because Zamasu was that weak compared to him ? Their first fight in the manga was completely different from the one in Anime.

Because different writers have different interpretations of how the fight would go down. Doesn't mean there's an actual power difference between the characters in both media.
If Zamasu can dodge Goku, he kept up with him. Him losing the fight easily doesn't mean that he didn't keep up. It just means that Goku was too strong for him.

Trunks manga = SSJ3 Goku. No matter what you'll tell, until you bring up a statement/feat which suggest that Goku was holding back, then Vegeta remains uncontradicted. The fact that Goku used the SSJG to finish the fight doesn't make things better for you.

This is wrong and it doesn't address a thing I said.

Key word beign if.

No. The same script is being followed, so the general power structure will be the same in both media since that's in the script. That's exactly what's shown in the anime and manga. The only difference is the writer's interpretation of how the fight would go down, not the actual power level of the characters.

Yeah, because SSJB Goku VS Future Zamasu isn't different.

No, between the anime and manga none of them are different power wise and you don't have any way of proving it.

Or Trunks > Goku > Zamasu based on their fight in the Anime, which you use to say that Trunks > Zamasu anyways. PIS or not ? If it's not, use the whole fight instead of picking what pleases you. If it is, then you can stop pretending that Zamasu is SSJ2-tier, because besides Trunks "killing" Zamasu, the latter did nothing, but performing SSJB-level feats, consistently.

And I prefer to use what is consistent than what happened once as a basis for my arguments.

Goku>Trunks>Zamasu. No matter the denial from your side, that isn't going to change. Black beat Trunks. Goku is equal to Black. Trunks beat Zamasu. That's the general hierarchy. Unless you can substantiate Goku not being able to beat Zamasu, nothing you're saying is relevant. All it means is that Goku>Zamasu, but this should have been obvious.

Zamasu didn't consistently do anything to SSB Goku. He has one fight scene where he keeps up with him and maneuvers around his guard. He didn't do anything significant to him 1v1, just like Trunks kicking Black into a building did nothing to him.