Base Goku (DBS) vs SSj3 Goku (Z)

[Evil Vegeta]

Super Saiyan 2 Trunks=Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

 

[Keedounan]

I love how you keep telling me how biased I am, yet purposelly ignore my points (for example, you've conveniently ignored Gohan = Goten, which is in your unbiased Daizenshuu as well) and evidences for the sake of your own interpretation. This is what is called biased my friend.

Just to prove my point, I'll quote one paragraph.

Yeah you're wrong.

Even though I've shown you exactly why this is PIS ? Even though the fights clearly suggest that Trunks > Goku ? Even though you use said fights for your own point ? You don't get to pick one part of the fight, and ignore the rest just because it suits your opinion.

You're being so biased that you're not making sense.

Your one to talk. Just look:

If Trunks beats Zamasu in a fight, but is trash to Black whom is Goku's stated equal, then you get SSJR Black=SSB Goku>Trunks>Zamasu,

Except that Black was never stated to be equal to Goku. And based on their fight, Black was clearly stronger.

but you keep on harping on and on about Zamasu trading blows with Goku as if it puts them at comparable levels.

...because it does, maybe ? Oh yeah, that's right. You want to pick Trunks managing to "kill" Zamasu once over Zamasu repeatedly holding his own against SSJB Goku. Yeah, clearly I'm the one who is biased.

Did Goku lose to Zamasu? No obviously not, so you're not making any sense.

Now you're telling me that it's not enough to trade blows with SSJB Goku and fighting evenly with him to be considered SSJB-tier ? And you're the one who has the gall to tell me that I'm not making any sense ?!

You sure are full of nonsense...I lost my will to continue to debate with you. But let me tell you something: before accusing someone of bias, check your own bias.

Good night.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I love how you keep telling me how biased I am, yet purposelly ignore my points (for example, you've conveniently ignored Gohan = Goten, which is in your unbiased Daizenshuu as well) and evidences for the sake of your own interpretation. This is what is called biased my friend.

Nope, using official sources that are stated to supplement the series isn't bias. Daizenshuu>Your opinion. Always and forever.

Just to prove my point, I'll quote one paragraph.

Even though I've shown you exactly why this is PIS ? Even though the fights clearly suggest that Trunks > Goku ? Even though you use said fights for your own point ? You don't get to pick one part of the fight, and ignore the rest just because it suits your opinion.

Your one to talk. Just look:

Except that Black was never stated to be equal to Goku. And based on their fight, Black was clearly stronger.

No, the bold is what you're doing. I'm fully acknowledging the fact that Zamasu kept up with Goku, but it doesn't mean much since powers don't have to be comparable to do that and Zamasu is consistently shown to be nothing compared to SSB.

SSJR Black was stated to be a match for Super Saiyan Blue, so yes in terms of pure power, they are equal. I don't know what you're even basing them not being equal on. Black winning against Goku and Vegeta? He didn't have the edge on them purely due to raw power.

...because it does, maybe ? Oh yeah, that's right. You want to pick Trunks managing to "kill" Zamasu once over Zamasu repeatedly holding his own against SSJB Goku. Yeah, clearly I'm the one who is biased.

Now you're telling me that it's not enough to trade blows with SSJB Goku and fighting evenly with him to be considered SSJB-tier ? And you're the one who has the gall to tell me that I'm not making any sense ?!

You sure are full of nonsense...I lost my will to continue to debate with you. But let me tell you something: before accusing someone of bias, check your own bias.

Good night.

Trunks beat Zamasu in a fight. Pretty sure that's decisive over "Zamasu is SSB level because he traded blows with Goku once."
Black=Goku>Trunks>Zamasu

Nappa and Goku didn't have comparable power levels as shown and I don't want to hear any nonsense about how the Daizenshuu is wrong because you say so or "the manga put Nappa higher than 4,000"(It didn't). Having comparable powers makes it easier to trade blows successfully, but isn't a strict rule by any means.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The Daizenshuu power levels aren't the be all end all. Piccolo was terrified of Nappa and thought he was unbeatable unless they put together a perfect plan. If Piccolo was really 3,500 like the Daiz says, then he would've been in position to give Nappa a good fight. Instead, he's outdone by Gohan before he even does the Masenko.

Nappa>Masenko>Enraged Gohan>Piccolo

Clearly shown.

Goku got so enraged that he knocked Black around, doing no damage, then get demolished to the point where he dropped out of Super Saiyan Blue altogether. Yeah, he was a match alright.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Yes, it is the be all end all on an official level since it's a nonbias omniscient narrator.

No, Enraged Gohan isn't shown to be above Piccolo. That isn't stated anywhere, but Piccolo is stated to be above Gohan.

If Piccolo thinks Nappa is unbeatable without a plan, then he is despite Piccolo being at 3,500. Fan opinion on gap percentages is irrelevant.

Yes, SSB Goku and Black were a match as stated. When eithers power were modified by rage boosts and/or zenkais, that changed.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yes, SSB Goku and Black were a match as stated. When eithers power were modified by rage boosts and/or zenkais, that changed.

You mean during their initial fight on the future world?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Yes, Super Saiyan Rose Black is stated to match Super Saiyan Blue in strength.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Yes, Super Saiyan Rose Black is stated to match Super Saiyan Blue in strength.

Nope, Trunks thought both Goku and Black were even in strenght but Vegeta contradicts it.
[youtube]pZKAPvLewgM[/youtube]

2:29-33, but again we need a legitimate translation from Herms to confirm this.

 

[Animelover5487]

Yes, it is the be all end all on an official level since it's a nonbias omniscient narrator.

No, Enraged Gohan isn't shown to be above Piccolo. That isn't stated anywhere, but Piccolo is stated to be above Gohan.

Piccolo outright stated that Enraged Gohan is stronger than him:

Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Nope, Trunks thought both Goku and Black were even in strenght but Vegeta contradicts it.
[youtube]pZKAPvLewgM[/youtube]

2:29-33, but again we need a legitimate translation from Herms to confirm this.

No, we don't need anothers trans because that doesn't refute what I said. It just means that they overall aren't evenly matched, not that they don't possess the same raw power. Black's advantage was the ki blade.

Super Saiyan Rose Black was stated in promotional material to match Super Saiyan Blue purely in terms of strength.

Spoiler

Yes, it is the be all end all on an official level since it's a nonbias omniscient narrator.

No, Enraged Gohan isn't shown to be above Piccolo. That isn't stated anywhere, but Piccolo is stated to be above Gohan.

Piccolo outright stated that Enraged Gohan is stronger than him:

Chapter: 220 (DBZ 26), P3.2
Piccolo: “Be confident, Gohan. If you put your mind to it, your power surpasses mine.”

Just means that Gohan can get a rage boost surpassing Piccolo's power. Doesn't mean that he did.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Nope, Trunks thought both Goku and Black were even in strenght but Vegeta contradicts it.
[youtube]pZKAPvLewgM[/youtube]

2:29-33, but again we need a legitimate translation from Herms to confirm this.

No, we don't need anothers trans because that doesn't refute what I said. It just means that they overall aren't evenly matched, not that they don't possess the same raw power. Black's advantage was the ki blade.

Super Saiyan Rose Black was stated in promotional material to match Super Saiyan Blue purely in terms of strength.

Spoiler

But the fight shows they weren't and Black keeps getting stronger whenever someone hits him hard. Beside, that's the anime version anyway where Toei keeps their power scalling inconsistents.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

But the fight shows they weren't and Black keeps getting stronger whenever someone hits him hard. Beside, that's the anime version anyway where Toei keeps their power scalling inconsistents.

Black didn't have a raw power advantage over them and he is stated to be a match for Blue. What gave him the edge was Goku's abilities and the ki blade. He does not have a power advantage until he starts getting zenkais.

Spoiler

They cancel out the force behind each others blows perfectly. I don't see how there is a tangible power difference especially with official word stating that they are a match purely on power terms.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But the fight shows they weren't and Black keeps getting stronger whenever someone hits him hard. Beside, that's the anime version anyway where Toei keeps their power scalling inconsistents.

Black didn't have a raw power advantage over them and he is stated to be a match for Blue. What gave him the edge was Goku's abilities and the ki blade. He does not have a power advantage until he starts getting zenkais.

Spoiler

They cancel out the force behind each others blows perfectly. I don't see how there is a tangible power difference especially with official word stating that they are a match purely on power terms.

Where is this statement that you keep talking about?

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It's on the scan I posted. The translation for it states that Super Saiyan Rose Black rivals Super Saiyan Blue.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30157&start=24260#p1155742

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yes, it is the be all end all on an official level since it's a nonbias omniscient narrator.

No, Enraged Gohan isn't shown to be above Piccolo. That isn't stated anywhere, but Piccolo is stated to be above Gohan.

If Piccolo thinks Nappa is unbeatable without a plan, then he is despite Piccolo being at 3,500. Fan opinion on gap percentages is irrelevant.

Yes, SSB Goku and Black were a match as stated. When eithers power were modified by rage boosts and/or zenkais, that changed.

It isn't. Nappa's power level wasn't stated in the Manga.

Piccolo is weaker than Gohan. This is demonstrated on panel. And as mentioned, Enraged Gohan>Piccolo is stated. The Masenko would further add to this. You're basically saying the Daizenshuu overwrote what happened in the story.

Goku said Nappa's ultimate technique would've done him in. Yeah, Nappa's not 4k and nothing remotely implies it.

They're not. Goku got knocked out of Super Saiyan Blue and needed to be helped by Mai. He's weaker than Super Saiyan Rose Black.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It isn't. Nappa's power level wasn't stated in the Manga.

So what? It was stated in the Daizenshuu.

Piccolo is weaker than Gohan. This is demonstrated on panel. And as mentioned, Enraged Gohan>Piccolo is stated. The Masenko would further add to this. You're basically saying the Daizenshuu overwrote what happened in the story.

All Piccolo stated was that Gohan could get a rage boost surpassing him. It was never stated that he did. The Daizenshuu clarifies it, your point is moot.

Goku said Nappa's ultimate technique would've done him in. Yeah, Nappa's not 4k and nothing remotely implies it.

Except the official material that puts Nappa at 4,000. Nappa is 4,000 and his technique would've done Goku in. So what?

They're not. Goku got knocked out of Super Saiyan Blue and needed to be helped by Mai. He's weaker than Super Saiyan Rose Black.

After Black got a zenkai. Don't see your point.

 

[p123]

Yea, the viewpoint of the supplementary material being superior to fan's opinion is a good logical one. But logic is always the best option. Sometime's the fan's come up with superior works to supplementary works and it would be foolish to go with the logic that is worse. You would have made a good Nazi, but this is Murica. Bitch.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

It doesn't matter. The figure isn't stated in the Manga. Everything in the actual story points to him having a higher power than that. Goku flat-out said Nappa's mouth blast would've fucked him up and we see both blasts cancel each other. Either Nappa is close to Goku's level or his attack was as powerful as Goku's KMHMH. Weaker attacks don't work against those that are clearly superior. Shown countless times. Goku can't beat Nappa and expects a fight between them to last for awhile. Nappa isn't half as strong as him based on that alone.

There's no "could". He said if Gohan "puts his mind" to it, he'll surpass his power. Gohan got enraged and knocked the shit out of Nappa. Something Piccolo could never do. And Gohan's Masenko was well above that. Gohan was later said to have enough power to at least stall Vegeta for a good bit. Gohan>Piccolo. Period. Nothing shows the opposite. The Daizenshuu will never contradict what happens in the actual story, unless you think Super Saiyan Goten=Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, or Base Trunks=#18 even though Super says Freeza>Base Goku.

Where was it said Black got a zenkai after Goku got enraged? Nowhere.

Goku lost for the majority of the fight, so "being a match" is completely wrong. He wasn't a match. You must've been watching a different fight.

 

[p123]

Damn EV spitting that straight fire. Scolding niggas and shit. Wow.

 

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It doesn't matter. The figure isn't stated in the Manga. Everything in the actual story points to him having a higher power than that. Goku flat-out said Nappa's mouth blast would've fucked him up and we see both blasts cancel each other. Either Nappa is close to Goku's level or his attack was as powerful as Goku's KMHMH. Weaker attacks don't work against those that are clearly superior. Shown countless times. Goku can't beat Nappa and expects a fight between them to last for awhile. Nappa isn't half as strong as him based on that alone.

No, you think it points to him having a higher power level. There's a difference. Daizenshuu>Your opinion. That's basically it. It doesn't matter if the manga didn't say it since the supplementary material for the story did.
If the manga were the only work that was part of dragon ball and the Daizenshuu was a fan made work, then you would have a point. It's not, so it's just going to be treated like any other source.

There's no "could". He said if Gohan "puts his mind" to it, he'll surpass his power. Gohan got enraged and knocked the shit out of Nappa. Something Piccolo could never do. And Gohan's Masenko was well above that. Gohan was later said to have enough power to at least stall Vegeta for a good bit. Gohan>Piccolo. Period. Nothing shows the opposite. The Daizenshuu will never contradict what happens in the actual story, unless you think Super Saiyan Goten=Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, or Base Trunks=#18 even though Super says Freeza>Base Goku.

Except the Daizenshuu which places Piccolo's power higher than Gohan's. That rage boost wasn't above Piccolo as already clarified by the Daizenshuu, so your attempt to twist the statement is moot. If you want to play this game, then I'll just say that Gohan didn't actually put his mind to it to successfully control his power. He was just acting out of blind rage.

The Daizenshuu doesn't disagree with the story. It disagrees with your interpretation. Get over it.

Where was it said Black got a zenkai after Goku got enraged? Nowhere.

Goku lost for the majority of the fight, so "being a match" is completely wrong. He wasn't a match. You must've been watching a different fight.

"I can feel it, the power suddenly surging up".

He says this after Goku beat him, but apparently he didn't power up? Nah, Black powering up after his beating isn't up for contention.

Yeah, Goku lost, but not because of he was weaker. SSJR Black and the SSBs are stated to be a match in terms of power, so they are.