Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[FeatsofPower]

Buu Saga Goku 100
Vegeta 80
Kid Gohan 75
Teen Gohan 60
Pui Pui 50
Expected Saiyans 35
Kaioshin 30
Kibito 25
Piccolo 22.5
Base Boys Post 20
Base Boys Pre 15
Android 18 15



Yeah this looks pretty bad when looking at the Base Boys. Tell me why it's wrong? Gohan is 10x stronger than the boys is ridiculous indeed though.

And if we are talking about a Super Saiyan being a 10x boost, it's even more ridiculous.

 

[SSJ2]

I think the issue is caused by firmly sticking to Base Saiyans > Piccolo based on one off handed remark from Vegeta.

 

[Yoshi]

I have this:

Kibito Kai: 500
Goku: 300
Yakon: 280
Vegeta: 200
Gohan: 150
Pui Pui: 140
Kaioshin: 100
Kibito: 90
Kamiccolo: 75
Trunks: 75
Android #17: 75
Goten: 70
Android #18: 70

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think the issue is caused by firmly sticking to Base Saiyans > Piccolo based on one off handed remark from Vegeta.

There's a good amount of information suggesting it as well though.

Kaioshin is terrified of Yakon, yet Base Goku can hang with him, yet Kaioshin blows Piccolo out of the water.

 

[Hector]

Goku- 100
Vegeta- 100
Gohan- 90
Trunks- 85
Goten- 80
Puipui- 50
Expected Saiyans- 40
Kaioshin- 30
Piccolo- 25

 

[Goku9001]

Goku 100
Vegeta 60
Gohan 50
Pui Pui 30
Expected Saiyans 21
Kaioshin 15
Piccolo 7.5
Base Boys 5
Android 18 5



Yeah this looks pretty bad when looking at the Base Boys. Tell me why it's wrong? Gohan is 10x stronger than the boys is ridiculous indeed though.

And if we are talking about a Super Saiyan being a 10x boost, it's even more ridiculous.

What the hell?

 

[Goku9001]

I think the issue is caused by firmly sticking to Base Saiyans > Piccolo based on one off handed remark from Vegeta.

It's not the only one. For one, the implication is reinforced when Gohan never opted to use Super Saiyan against someone he deemed much stronger than Piccolo until he was asked to do it.

 

[FeatsofPower]

What the hell?

What’s the issue?

It's not the only one. For one, the implication is reinforced when Gohan never opted to use Super Saiyan against someone he deemed much stronger than Piccolo until he was asked to do it.

Agreed, Base Saiyan supremacy is without a doubt the most evidence based suggestion we have.

Do you have issue with the

Base Adults > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Boys

Chain?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Goku- 100
Vegeta- 100
Gohan- 90
Trunks- 85
Goten- 80
Puipui- 50
Expected Saiyans- 40
Kaioshin- 30
Piccolo- 25

Expected Saiyans at 80% of Pui Pui is not going to be far enough. Pui Pui expects to be able to beat them and there’s no way that can be expected to happen.

I’d say Expected Saiyans being around 70% of Pui Pui is perfect. At 66% a fighter can handle 3 fighters but 75% can put up somewhat of a fight.

 

[Animelover5487]

It's not the only one. For one, the implication is reinforced when Gohan never opted to use Super Saiyan against someone he deemed much stronger than Piccolo until he was asked to do it.

Who are you talking about? Kibito?

 

[Hector]

Expected Saiyans at 80% of Pui Pui is not going to be far enough. Pui Pui expects to be able to beat them and there’s no way that can be expected to happen.

I’d say Expected Saiyans being around 70% of Pui Pui is perfect. At 66% a fighter can handle 3 fighters but 75% can put up somewhat of a fight.

OK, lower Expected Saiyans to 35.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the issue is caused by firmly sticking to Base Saiyans > Piccolo based on one off handed remark from Vegeta.

Agreed, and it's easy to rationalize Vegeta being wrong, but what evidence is there that says Piccolo > Base? Other than the off screen Cell Jrs fight?

It's not the only one. For one, the implication is reinforced when Gohan never opted to use Super Saiyan against someone he deemed much stronger than Piccolo until he was asked to do it.

There's no reason to think Kibito > Piccolo. Only Shin was said to be > Piccolo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

There's no reason to think Kibito > Piccolo. Only Shin was said to be > Piccolo.

Shin is dimensions above Piccolo. Surely there is room between dimensions for Kibito to be fit in, no?

Kibito was about to fight Base Gohan, it would be awkward for him to be below even Piccolo, wouldn't it?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Man there are so many dimensions to portray here.


Kaioshin >>> Piccolo

Well, you could always downplay this gap due to Piccolo most likely talking about his status, but still, Kaioshin should be able to wipe the floor with Piccolo.

Kibito should probably be able to beat Piccolo as well.

Kaioshin 100
Kibito 60
Piccolo 50

Is perhaps appropriate.

The absolutely massive gap between the boys and the adults seems absurd.

But if we use Gotenks versus Vegetto as any sign, that does seem to be likley.

Remember Super Saiyan Gotenks Pre-Rosat is only around Super Saiyan 3 Goku, whereas Super Saiyan Vegetto is tremendously more powerful.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Shin is dimensions above Piccolo. Surely there is room between dimensions for Kibito to be fit in, no?

Kibito was about to fight Base Gohan, it would be awkward for him to be below even Piccolo, wouldn't it?

I don't think you can draw anything from it about Gohan or Kibito's power, other than Kibito being capable of giving Gohan trouble.

I don't know where you and @Goku9001 are taking Base Gohan > Kibito from in this segment. Gohan looks pretty hopeless. For all he knows, he might as well need Super Saiyan.

About the boys, I think I'm alright with them being way weaker than the adults. They're way stronger than Goku and Gohan were at 8, and that's pretty impressive.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I don't think you can draw anything from it about Gohan or Kibito's power, other than Kibito being capable of giving Gohan trouble.

Since we know Piccolo most definitely can't give Gohan trouble, Kibito even being suggested to be able to do so would be one in favor of Kibito. Why would a newer character be weaker than Piccolo, who is being relegated to what may be Android-ish level.

There's zero evidence for Piccolo > Kibito. At least Kibito has a faux rivalry with Gohan.

I don't know where you and @Goku9001 are taking Base Gohan > Kibito from in this segment. Gohan looks pretty hopeless. For all he knows, he might as well need Super Saiyan.

Which means Kibito >>> Piccolo, since Base Gohan can one shot Kaioshin who can one shot Piccolo.

I think Goku9001 and I explained at length the narrative of the conversation. in the past. Gohan, not considering Super Saiyan, thinks he might actually have to use some real effort to defeat Kibito, knowing he can't fake that he's human, Kibito gives him pause on what he should do. Gohan never, ever, considers Kibito a threat enough to warrant Super Saiyan of all things, a form he never intended on using at the tournament so he can protect his identity.. Look at his remark when Piccolo tells him to use Super Saiyan, he says something like, "Welp, there goes school." Not using Super Saiyan is tied to him not exposing himself, so he never planned on using it. His buddy who just made Piccolo crap himself, never makes Gohan think he needs to use Super Saiyan. That is speaking volumes about the absurdity of the Base Saiyan powers in this saga.

About the boys, I think I'm alright with them being way weaker than the adults. They're way stronger than Goku and Gohan were at 8, and that's pretty impressive.

Yeah, with all of the evidence we have, I guess we have to chalk up the idea of Goten being close to Gohan as complete nonsense. Them being around Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Games seems to have the most backing. I think the boys are actually a little bit weaker than the Cell Jrs are too based on their fights, Cell Juniors are not sweating them at all.

 

[Goku9001]

What’s the issue?




Agreed, Base Saiyan supremacy is without a doubt the most evidence based suggestion we have.

Do you have issue with the

Base Adults > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Boys

Chain?

It was a joke. I thought you would never return. Honestly, things have been a bit boring without you.

I don't have an issue with the chain. You convinced me that the Base Kids are around Android 18's level. The difficult part is trying to tame the gap between the Adults and the Kids because I don't think the story was conveying there was a 10x gap based on Goten's exchanges with Gohan or Trunks' exchange with Vegeta. It's really just all over the case.

Personally, I'd have:

Goku - 100
Vegeta -80
Gohan - 60

Vegeta should be closer to Goku than he is to Gohan I feel.

Edit: Also, let's VC sometime Feats. It would be nice to get caught up.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Since we know Piccolo most definitely can't give Gohan trouble, Kibito even being suggested to be able to do so would be one in favor of Kibito. Why would a newer character be weaker than Piccolo, who is being relegated to what may be Android-ish level.

There's zero evidence for Piccolo > Kibito. At least Kibito has a faux rivalry with Gohan.

But the fact this rivalry was fake means it's worth nothing. You're trying to reach a middle ground, but one of the extremes (Kibito being base level) is non existent. It's pulled out of nowhere and doesn't need to exist. Kibito can be stronger than Piccolo, or he can be weaker than Babidi. What does it change in the story?

Which means Kibito >>> Piccolo, since Base Gohan can one shot Kaioshin who can one shot Piccolo.

I think Goku9001 and I explained at length the narrative of the conversation. in the past. Gohan, not considering Super Saiyan, thinks he might actually have to use some real effort to defeat Kibito, knowing he can't fake that he's human, Kibito gives him pause on what he should do. Gohan never, ever, considers Kibito a threat enough to warrant Super Saiyan of all things, a form he never intended on using at the tournament so he can protect his identity.. Look at his remark when Piccolo tells him to use Super Saiyan, he says something like, "Welp, there goes school." Not using Super Saiyan is tied to him not exposing himself, so he never planned on using it. His buddy who just made Piccolo crap himself, never makes Gohan think he needs to use Super Saiyan. That is speaking volumes about the absurdity of the Base Saiyan powers in this saga.

Kaioshin saved SSJ Gohan's life against Boo. He'd pulverize Base Gohan with a stare.

But the reason Gohan is surprised is that Kibito knows about Super Saiyan. Gohan wonders if he can beat Kibito without showing his "true power", which may or may not be Super Saiyan. When Gohan goes a step too far and turns SSJ2 instead of the requested SSJ1, doesn't it mean he expects Kibito to be that strong?

Yeah, with all of the evidence we have, I guess we have to chalk up the idea of Goten being close to Gohan as complete nonsense. Them being around Vegeta and Trunks at the Cell Games seems to have the most backing. I think the boys are actually a little bit weaker than the Cell Jrs are too based on their fights, Cell Juniors are not sweating them at all.

I don't mind the boys being Super Vegeta level, but Cell Jr level is the perfect spot. I have them a bit above the Jrs, they lost because they were outnumbered.

 

[SIAD]

I think it's not a bad idea to constantly vary the SSJ multiplier depending on what the plot demands.

For example having a multiplier of MSSJ being 500x the Base. The MSSJ would have the same strength as the USSJ, but with no loss of speed.

That way, you wouldn't have to be so minimalist in order to have Goten Base >= Android #18.

In the case of Saiyans that have their SSJ2 form, they can go back to having the SSJ multiplier being 50x stronger than the Base.

In this way you can have the Saiyan SSJ Adults being not astronomically stronger than the SSJ Children, but astronomically stronger in their Base states.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@Goku9001
Yeah, I'm sure these topics get stale over time. You guys haven't taken a break at all? My goodness. I get bored staying in one spot too long. I doubt I'll be on Discord anytime soon, just looking to keep it pretty light here and there, not trying to go full bore anymore.

I guess the sparring sessions have to give way to later implications of a tremendous gap being portrayed. Vegetto compared to Gotenks proves the adults are way stronger doesn't it now?

Yeah, I think the Base Boys ~ Android 18 logic is still sound. I do wonder how much improved Piccolo is over 18 though. We used to limit it to try to keep the Adults somewhere close, but I don't know how necessary that is. I would think the closer the better. But Piccolo has to be able to at least one shot Android 18 at this stage of the game I'd assume. We never get anything conclusive about how big this gap needs to be unfortunately, just that Piccolo trained an entire year doing so and is stated to have improved quite a bit.

The only problem with the boys being 10x weaker than the adults is that the Cell Jrs can't be 10x weaker than the MSSJ powers. So that creates a whole nother issue now that I think of it. Quite a pickle indeed. I've actually recently wanted to try out the Base Gotenks > Ssj Gotenks >= Ssj 3 Goku > Base Gotenks > Majin Vegeta with Gotenks getting 50x boost and Ssj3 being a 50x boost. It's madness, but who knows, maybe that's the best way. Your 10x boost logic has always been sound, I would like to try that out as well, but the Base Boys being 10x weaker than Gohan will make things problematic. A 10x boost make the Base/MSSJ powers make a lot more sense in the Buu Saga though.

I don't mind the boys being Super Vegeta level, but Cell Jr level is the perfect spot. I have them a bit above the Jrs, they lost because they were outnumbered.

The boys were fighting one on one and were being pressed. The Cell Jrs didn't even need to use their numbers and were not taking the boys seriously at all.