Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[FeatsofPower]

Why wouldn't Kaioshin sense Gohan accurately? Where's it said his chi sensing is shitty?

Reasons unknown.

 

[Yoshi]

@FeatsofPower ,

Do you still believe that Base Gotenks Post ROSAT’s power is a gag?

 

[FeatsofPower]

@FeatsofPower ,

Do you still believe that Base Gotenks Post ROSAT’s power is a gag?

No, and it's even backed up by Super anime.

Beerus wrecks Majin Buu and then fights Base Gotenks, yet Piccolo is shocked that even Gotenks can be made such a fool of.

Base Gotenks > Majin Buu proves Base Gotenks power is more than just hype.

 

[Goku9001]

Kaioshin obviously forgot about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. That is literally why Kaioshin blatantly recalls Gohan's power after Goku defeated Yakon. It was at that moment that Kaioshin realized that the Saiyans, quote on quote, could put forth tremendous power in an instant. That was when Kaioshin realized he had underestimated the Saiyans and why they were so confident going into this. That is literally the narrative presented to us. The fact that people are quibbling over Kaioshin's knowledge of Super Saiyan 2 shows a lack of understanding as to what was really going on.

The fact of the matter is that Kaioshin completely forgot about Gohan's power and then was completely stupefied by Vegeta overcoming Pui Pui despite expecting Pui Pui to be a challenge against all three Super Saiyans. Kaioshin already admitted that Goku was stronger than him before watching him fight. As such, Pui Pui should already be expected to be stronger than Kaioshin before he saw what Vegeta could do.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Exactly

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Fair enough, you aren't suggesting the boys are superior to the Cell Jrs though, right?

No, it's not a rare ability. Fighters have always been able to know how strong other opponents are just by watching them. We've had countless reactions of things like, "What speed!" Fighters can tell how fast someone is in relation to themselves and make judgments on their power based on that. You and I can do that right now. You can instantly tell if someone is dramatically faster than you just by watching their movements. There's no reason for Dragonball to work any differently.

Pui Pui can't be fodder. Someone who is capable of easily handling Pui Pui requires Yakon to deal with. Badibi doesn't have anyone on the ship that can easily smoke Pui Pui, which should be telling. Badidi collects only the strongest warriors in the universe, so the idea that all of these warriors are piss weak seems silly. Remember, Pui Pui represents the entirety of Badibi's forces.

@ahill1

Even more reason to suggest Shin didn't accurately sense Gohan from the getgo, which has evidence considering he brings up how hard it was to contain Gohan and not his ki power. He never saw how fast Gohan moved. If he knew how strong Ssj2 Gohan really was, Dabura wouldn't be a threat. It's sloppy writing, but don't let the sloppy writing deter you from the overall message here. Base Saiyans > Kaioshin is grounded in tons of evidence.

Kaioshin is nowhere near as fast as Yakon. There's no way he can be.

No, I imagine they’re more or less the same. Maybe the boys are a bit stronger, but not a lot.

Cell Jrs: 2,100
SSJ Goten: 2,400
SSJ Trunks: 2,500

Kaioshin is not a fighter. You told Ahill his Ki sensing is bad, why would his eyes be any better? Specially when he’s such a emotional wreck? He had just remembered SSJ2 Gohan before Yakon arrived. You think he forgot again?

Worth pointing out Kaioshin doesn’t even talk about Yakon’s speed, only Goku does. He just wants to jump in when Goku seems to struggle.

It doesn’t require Yakon. Dabra didn’t want to send him but Babidi wanted to be sure. What is piss weak though? Ginyu Force were some of the best in the universe. 1st form Freeza was the strongest aside from Cold.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@GreatSaiyaman123

what’s suggests the boys are stronger than the Cell Jrs?

The idea that Kaioshin can jump in and save poor old Base Goku seems absurd to me when looking at that scene. I can’t agree with that logic so I’ll have to move on from that topic with you and ahill. Kaioshin is nothing but complete trash with some good psychic abilities. For me that’s the best view although not perfect of course.

 

[ahill1]

Reasons unknown.

He sensed SSJ2 Goku's burst just fine.

 

[FeatsofPower]

He sensed SSJ2 Goku's burst just fine.

Indeed, the burst seems to have allowed him to remember Gohan's similar burst of power.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin also remembered SSJ2 Gohan right before Yakon, just because Goku and Vegeta said Dabra was weak.

Spoiler

If you want to end things here, then I'll just explain my position before we leave.

I can see where you're coming from P. Shin doesn't fight, so that means he can't do anything, right? But the way I see it (Supported by BoG confirming Toriyama's view on Base Saiyans), Shin was just a plot device to get the Saiyans on the ship and he was to sit out. He doesn't "save poor old Base Goku" because Goku was running circles around Yakon. He asked their help, expecting strong opponents, so they went and took the fight for themselves. He did sit out on purpose, he was forced to.

Kaioshin can't sense Babidi's minions and does not know how strong they are, just like Babidi is clueless in general as the meter thing (And Piccolo one shotting him) proves. Vegeta was the only Z Fighter who noticed 19 was below expectations, so gauging by movements is not something you do casually. I imagine you have to pay a lot of attention.

I think the psychic abilities is kinda lopsided. Doesn't that just mean Shin can just paralyze or blow up Pocus and Yakon despite being weaker?

 

[Dagon]

Last I checked, I had the base kids ~ SSJ Vegeta from the androids arc. I kinda looked into the fight closely and I think it's likely 18 was initially using a similar level of effort Vs Mighty Mask, which I call her resting base, as she was Vs Vegeta in their first switching of hands. Kid Trunks seems to have similar problems as Vegeta in fending her, so that's where I drew the conclusion more or less that base kid Trunks ~ SSJ Vegeta [androids arc]... When 18 said she'd go all out Vs Vegeta, she smiles before charging at him. When 18 sees the boys went SSJ, she smiles too, likewise, so I think she was about to go FP there much like she did Vs Vegeta, but once she realized their SSJs are that strong she just realized she couldn't do anything in a h2h battle.

The suit hinders their ability to fight to full effectiveness, so even with their power being equal to 18, she'd hold an advantage anyway. The anime had more dialogue to flesh it out, like Trunks saying he can't put his back into his punches.

 

[ahill1]

Indeed, the burst seems to have allowed him to remember Gohan's similar burst of power.

Yeah, but look at his reaction to Goku's burst in comparison to Gohan. If you'd say his chi sensing is shitty so that actually watching their bases fight impresses him more, then he should be more impressed by base Goku's fighting abilities than merely sensing his SSJ2 burst, no?

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think the psychic abilities is kinda lopsided. Doesn't that just mean Shin can just paralyze or blow up Pocus and Yakon despite being weaker?

It doesn't seem likely. If Shin's psychic abilities were all that great, he wouldn't be so nervous against Pui Pui and Yakon. I think both fighters can individually take out Kaioshin by themselves.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

No, and it's even backed up by Super anime.

Beerus wrecks Majin Buu and then fights Base Gotenks, yet Piccolo is shocked that even Gotenks can be made such a fool of.

Base Gotenks > Majin Buu proves Base Gotenks power is more than just hype.

Tbf, Beerus throwing Buu to Gohan at one side is the same as 18 doing it to Vegeta and Trunks back then, which is the equivalent of him taking down both of the strongest fighters (aside from Vegeta in Super).

 

[FeatsofPower]

Tbf, Beerus throwing Buu to Gohan at one side is the same as 18 doing it to Vegeta and Trunks back then, which is the equivalent of him taking down both of the strongest fighters (aside from Vegeta in Super).

I don’t see your point? Are you talking the anime?

 

[Goku9001]

I don’t see your point? Are you talking the anime?

He's saying that much like how Trunks and Vegeta were the strongest against 18, Buu and Gohan were the strongest against Buu because the scenes are similar. I don't really see that being the case. It's just coincidental.

 

[FeatsofPower]

He's saying that much like how Trunks and Vegeta were the strongest against 18, Buu and Gohan were the strongest against Buu because the scenes are similar. I don't really see that being the case. It's just coincidental.

Oh, but that wouldn't outweigh my point? Majin Buu gets defeated and then Piccolo is surprised that Base Gotenks gets wrecked so easily. We have somewhat of an inconsistency when Videl is surprised that Piccolo gets defeated so easily after this point, but it's Videl.

The Super anime really broke my "Base Gotenks is a gag" logic for me. It was on the tail end when I was leaving so the idea hadn't fully been digested, but there's no escaping it now that I've had a break. I've always felt that "Base Gotenks is a gag" was never sufficient, but I felt helpless to make sense of the situation. I think there are better options. Whether that mean Super Saiyan 3 is a 50x boost or perhaps we can find a way to make Super Saiyan a smaller boost, I think both of those options are superior to throwing the idea away. Which obviously most of you already agreed with, so nothing ground breaking here, but man, AT really screwed us with a lot of this Buu Saga stuff. I feel like I finally have a firm grasp on the Super Saiyan / Super Saiyan 2 Gohan stuff, but there's the Base Saiyan and Gotenks issues that are left.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

@Goku9001

Either you're an idiot with a low IQ or you are using the most random logic ever agreeing with the stupid of Kenshi or Dagon on this XD (in the 2nd case I can't know for sure whether he has criteria or can think by himself), I can't tell. Hard to know what is happening here.

@FeatsofPower

So, just because of being a human limits her capacity of ki sensing? There's something also called intuition, buddy. Same reason as to why Bulma could tell that Trunks was still not as strong as Gohan in the future.

Piccolo's reaction to Gotenks losing is as inconsistent as Piccolo getting defeated unless they wanted Buu to be pissweak in this saga.

From what I can think of, you're not entirely agreeing with the stupidity of @Goku9001 just following the conversation.

 

[SIAD]

@MikaelHarding

What do you think of all this debate?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

but it's Videl.

I never got this bit. Videl can sense Ki just fine.

Also isn’t the “Even Gotenks was defeated” line odd since Gotenks didn’t even transform? Unless Piccolo knows SSJ3 Gotenks would end up the same way…