Base Saiyans Power (Buu Saga)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The 2nd fighter shouldn’t be all too different than Pui Pui. And Kaioshin needs the help of the Saiyans to fight Badibis warriors and is not certain about victory despite not knowing about Yakon and Dabura. The Pui Puis of the world can give Kaioshin and the Saiyans a run for their money.

Hard disagree. Why would the warriors be on the same level? That’s not how a gauntlet works.

He’s not certain because he doesn’t know how it’s going down exactly. He’s going in blind. He has an idea, but you can’t limit his estimative to one number and call it a fact. How does Shin know Pui Pui is a 50? Why not a 45? 55? 60?

Face it, you can’t put numbers to everything. Better stick to the characters as we see them instead of trying to guess what others imagined.

When Dabra shows up, Shin says “that makes things difficult”. So he’s not expecting things to be that hard before. You’re also heavily overestimating Yakon. His hype is not on Dabra’s league at all.

Exactly, they are strong enough to be disposed of quickly, yet if he’s completely careless he can get caught. Pui Pui with somewhere around a 1.5x advantage over the Expsfted Saiyans sounds about right.

Anyone can have “trouble” if they’re not careful. Nappa vs Z Fighters is a great example.

1.5x is Goku vs Ginyus style, 1.33x between Shin and Pui is the absolute highest you should go here. You’re leaning more into Babidi’s side (the more flawed one) than Kaioshin’s. Babidi thinks Pui only struggles (nothing about losing) if he’s sloppy. Does Shin expect Babidi’s weakest fighter to be sloppy?

 

[Goku9001]

So Shin doesn’t think they can beat the 2nd fighter?

Pui Pui makes a offhand comment about “having trouble” if he’s not careful. It’s never suggested he may lose. In fact, Babidi expected the fight to be over in seconds.



So Gohan isn’t thinking about something he promised not to use before. Big deal. Super Saiyan is a superhuman ability and part of his secret identity anyway.

I can try to look up the neo thread.

I seriously don't understand your point. Gohan is apprehensive about exposing himself and yet the thought about Super Saiyan never crosses his mind which means it has to be alluding to something else. During his entire High School experience, Gohan frets over exposing his superhuman abilities. That is why he wears the disguise in the first place despite the "no Super "Saiyan" rule.

The thread was made by Vic. I need to find the thread because my post was top tier and I'm too lazy to do it again.

 

[FeatsofPower]

@Goku9001

I’d like to advance the discussion. They don’t have to agree.
Where do we go next?

I think I’ve been able to close the gap on CG Vegeta and Teen Gohan with several big steps. It’s still not close but I’ve made it much closer now.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I seriously don't understand your point. Gohan is apprehensive about exposing himself and yet the thought about Super Saiyan never crosses his mind which means it has to be alluding to something else. During his entire High School experience, Gohan frets over exposing his superhuman abilities. That is why he wears the disguise in the first place despite the "no Super "Saiyan" rule.

The thread was made by Vic. I need to find the thread because my post was top tier and I'm too lazy to do it again.

I don’t understand your point, man. Why isn’t Super Saiyan part of his “true power”? Kibito knowing about SSJ has nothing to do with what Gohan is thinking.

I’d like to advance the discussion. They don’t have to agree.
Where do we go next?

We are advancing things. Vegeta vs Gohan has been debated since forever, you’re going in circles. Where else will you find discussion on Expected Saiyans vs Pui Pui? I’m bringing up things you refuse to think about, and you prefer to continue the circle instead.

 

[Goku9001]

I don’t understand your point, man. Why isn’t Super Saiyan part of his “true power”? Kibito knowing about SSJ has nothing to do with what Gohan is thinking.



We are advancing things. Vegeta vs Gohan has been debated since forever, you’re going in circles. Where else will you find discussion on Expected Saiyans vs Pui Pui? I’m bringing up things you refuse to think about, and you prefer to continue the circle instead.

I found the post if you want to take a look:

The Final Nail for Piccolo - Dragon Ball

Kind of catchy isn't it? Gohan fighting in Base against Kibito showcases what Gohan feels about Piccolo and Kaioshin.

www.neoseeker.com

Get back to me if you have any questions.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I found the post if you want to take a look:

The Final Nail for Piccolo - Dragon Ball

Kind of catchy isn't it? Gohan fighting in Base against Kibito showcases what Gohan feels about Piccolo and Kaioshin.

www.neoseeker.com

Get back to me if you have any questions.

I get it now. I even agreed with you there lol, I just didn’t get it here. There’s just one thing, which I even brought up there… Gohan just says he’s not far above Kibito. How does that mean he’s around Kibito at all?

I also argue P’s logic in the OP is flawed because SSJ was banned from the get go. SSJ was banned from the tournament for similar reasons, so that’s why he never brings it up. I’m not sure what’s your position on this one.

 

[FeatsofPower]

What position have you changed on now @GreatSaiyaman123

Just read your post on that page @Goku9001 , great stuff.

So where do we go from here? Is there an angle you would like to be progressed? I think the full acceptance of the kids power being massively inferior to the adults, should be the next step.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

What position have you changed on now @GreatSaiyaman123

Just read your post on that page @Goku9001 , great stuff.

So where do we go from here? Is there an angle you would like to be progressed? I think the full acceptance of the kids power being massively inferior to the adults, should be the next step.

Come to think of it, our positions aren’t very different. We both have

Base Saiyans > Pui Pui > Shin > Piccolo > Base Boys.

It’s just the gaps that are being discussed. You say team vs Pui is like 3-4 Recoomes vs 60k Goku, I say it’s more like 4 Vegetas vs Recoome.

I think Super helped me a lot in accepting Base Gohan > Piccolo > Base Boys. RoF lays it out pretty clearly.

I imagine you have to go through the Cell Saga stuff to see the gap between the boys and the adults. Base Boys peak around 18, adults peak at least around Super Vegeta.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Well that's good enough then for me. Let's discuss some numbers. I think we need to have the Base Boys get a significant increase post ROSAT to make some of these implications work.

How strong do you have Piccolo? less than Super Vegeta?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well that's good enough then for me. Let's discuss some numbers. I think we need to have the Base Boys get a significant increase post ROSAT to make some of these implications work.

How strong do you have Piccolo? less than Super Vegeta?

But the boys can only be so strong. Piccolo > Post Rosat Base Boys.

I think Piccolo should be at least Android 16 level, but he gets whatever placement is left for him. I’d have to make a Cell Saga list to see the gaps and work backwards to Piccolo.

 

[SIAD]

@FeatsofPower @GreatSaiyaman123 @Animelover5487 @MikaelHarding

Do you think it is appropriate to have Future Trunks SSJ (Debut) with an advantage of 1,388888x Mecha Freeza?

 

[Animelover5487]

@FeatsofPower @GreatSaiyaman123 @Animelover5487 @MikaelHarding

Do you think it is appropriate to have Future Trunks SSJ (Debut) with an advantage of 1,388888x Mecha Freeza?

Vegeta killed Cui in an instant, so yeah anywhere from 1.33-1.5x is applicable.

 

[FeatsofPower]

But the boys can only be so strong. Piccolo > Post Rosat Base Boys.

Sure but the point I’m making is the space between 18 and Piccolo can be quite large.

I think Piccolo should be at least Android 16 level, but he gets whatever placement is left for him. I’d have to make a Cell Saga list to see the gaps and work backwards to Piccolo.

That’s what I want to do, start a list working backwards from the Buu Saga and let’s see what happens

Do you think it is appropriate to have Future Trunks SSJ (Debut) with an advantage of 1,388888x Mecha Freeza?

1.5x minimum

Vegeta killed Cui in an instant, so yeah anywhere from 1.33-1.5x is applicable.

AT messed up it should be 1.5x min

 

[Yoshi]

@GreatSaiyaman123 I agree that the gaps are what’s important here. People always come to the conclusion that the Base Adults > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Boys.

I’m still of the opinion that Gohan’s gap over Pui Pui is like Goku’s gap over Yakon. I’m sure someone will argue that the mystery fighters make this stance iffy but I think they’re all in the Base Saiyan range like we saw with Yakon.

 

[SIAD]

Sure but the point I’m making is the space between 18 and Piccolo can be quite large.



That’s what I want to do, start a list working backwards from the Buu Saga and let’s see what happens


1.5x minimum



AT messed up it should be 1.5x min

@FeatsofPower

I totally agree with everything you say on this topic.

What gap do you find bigger between Future Trunks over Mecha Frieza and the gap between Vegeta ASSJ over Semi Perfect Cell?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Please let’s not detract from the topic. This Freeza stuff should be elsewhere.

@GreatSaiyaman123 I agree that the gaps are what’s important here. People always come to the conclusion that the Base Adults > Pui Pui > Kaioshin > Piccolo > Base Boys.

I’m still of the opinion that Gohan’s gap over Pui Pui is like Goku’s gap over Yakon. I’m sure someone will argue that the mystery fighters make this stance iffy but I think they’re all in the Base Saiyan range like we saw with Yakon.

I think Pui Pui might be weaker than that. Vegeta pulverized Pui Pui but Dabra thought Yakon was overkill.

Pui Pui: 100
Minimum to clobber Pui Pui: 133?
Yakon: 200?

Yakon could easily be many times above Pui Pui. Or could these gaps be smaller?

 

[Yoshi]

I think Pui Pui might be weaker than that. Vegeta pulverized Pui Pui but Dabra thought Yakon was overkill.

Pui Pui: 100
Minimum to clobber Pui Pui: 133?
Yakon: 200?

Yakon could easily be many times above Pui Pui. Or could these gaps be smaller?

I think a x2 gap is enough. Dabura probably thought that the Saiyans were all in the same range as Vegeta, so Yakon might have been able to take on three opponents on the same level as Vegeta.

Goku: 100
Yakon: 93
Vegeta: 66
Gohan: 50
Pui Pui: 46

 

[FeatsofPower]

Vegeta probably isn’t going all out. Gohan seems too cool to be threatened at all by Pui Pui.
Gohan should easily handle Pui Pui

 

[FeatsofPower]

Look at Gohans face when Beheta faces Pui Pui

 

[Yoshi]

Gohan probably knows Vegeta is stronger than him.