Base Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Piccolo (Cell Games)

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gohan literally refuses to and only transforms because Piccolo told him to. And why do you guys think Gohan wanted to beat Kibito on accident? Just to be funny?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Gohan literally refuses to and only transforms because Piccolo told him to. And why do you guys think Gohan wanted to beat Kibito on accident? Just to be funny?

Yes, because he holds the Golden Warrior identity even more sacred than the Saiyaman one. That's the identity that links him back to the boy who beat Cell and completely blows up the spot that they are all aliens living on this planet and all have super powers completely ruining their own privacy.

No, Gohan wants to beat Kibito by accident like Shen did to Yajirobe. Where he doesn't have to exert himself in a way that reveals that he's using superhuman abilities.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Exactly. He'd rather lose to Kibito than reveal SSJ and only does so because Piccolo told him to.

But you just said his Saiyaman identity was busted?

 

[ahill1]

"Goku isn't concerned about Piccolo because Goku isn't concerned about Piccolo."

You're just restating your claim as the argument. Goku wouldn't be concerned about Piccolo because he knows he can win. The context lends itself to that conclusion because Goku is entering a tournament in which he wants to win. If he isn't concerned about Piccolo, then he simply doesn't view him as an obstacle. Nor does Goku feel the need to break the "no Super Saiyan" rule at any point of the tournament.

We don't know why Goku isn't concerned. He never explicitly stated why. He knows Piccolo's main aim is to have fun with them, he knows Piccolo knows he's inferior when they are SSJ. So even if they are inferior as normal Saiyans, it's to be expected Piccolo wouldn't force a win unfairly. Goku should know that well. And even if he didn't, he can still break it fast enough just for the KO blow against Piccolo. And even still, he can be pitied against Vegeta and the Saiyans firstly. No one knows who they will be facing. If Vegeta has his fight with Goku over, which happened to be the 1st one, nothing else matters to him. Simple enough.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Exactly. He'd rather lose to Kibito than reveal SSJ and only does so because Piccolo told him to.

He'd rather RISK losing to Kibito. He doesn't think Kibito is going to beat him, just that he might be a tough competitor, and he can't hold back in a way not to be superhuman. So we know Super Saiyan was never a factor in his thinking. So he cannot be confident in winning the tournament in Base and face Piccolo.

But you just said his Saiyaman identity was busted?

Yes, but there seems to be something else there. Like Saiyaman is one thing, perhaps he can play it off or something, everyone learning he is superhuman is another thing he doesn't want to do.

 

[FeatsofPower]

We don't know why Goku isn't concerned. He never explicitly stated why. He knows Piccolo's main aim is to have fun with them, he knows Piccolo knows he's inferior when they are SSJ. So even if they are inferior as normal Saiyans, it's to be expected Piccolo wouldn't force a win unfairly. Goku should know that well. And even if he didn't, he can still break it fast enough just for the KO blow against Piccolo. And even still, he can be pitied against Vegeta and the Saiyans firstly. No one knows who they will be facing. If Vegeta has his fight with Goku over, which happened to be the 1st one, nothing else matters to him. Simple enough

Do you really think Gohan is asking Vegeta to lose when he's asking him to fight in Base? Why wouldn't Vegeta object completely? He is taken aback, but then goes on to say his advantage remains the same and he will win the tournament.

Base Vegeta > All is stated right there. Vegeta knows Piccolo and Gohan are friends and has no reason to assume Mean Green won't be there, which is further suggested when Vegeta is not shocked when he sees Piccolo.

 

[ahill1]

Again, Goku used SSJ2 in a burst in a quick and rapid fashion. He can do that for the KO blow vs Piccolo when it's a form he has bigger mastery over than SSJ2. He just can't fightmin SSJ for long so others would see him.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Again, Goku used SSJ2 in a burst in a quick and rapid fashion. He can do that for the KO blow vs Piccolo when it's a form he has bigger mastery over than SSJ2. He just can't fightmin SSJ for long so others would see him.

Nothing suggests any of that would be necessary for someone like Piccolo. They don't even need to do that for Kaioshin, why would they do it for Piccolo?

 

[ahill1]

Do you really think Gohan is asking Vegeta to lose when he's asking him to fight in Base? Why wouldn't Vegeta object completely? He is taken aback, but then goes on to say his advantage remains the same and he will win the tournament.

Base Vegeta > All is stated right there. Vegeta knows Piccolo and Gohan are friends and has no reason to assume Mean Green won't be there, which is further suggested when Vegeta is not shocked when he sees Piccolo.

You addressed nothing I said. If Gohan is inferior to Piccolo in base, and Piccolo knows why Gohan is doing that, do you think Gohan expects Piccolo to get the W when the Saiyans have a reason to hide their true powers? Really? With 18 yes, since she wanted the prize money, but you know Piccolo is different. Besides, like I said enough, quick SSJ burst when charging at Piccolo fast enough for the human eyes so they can just KO Piccolo weren't that the case.

 

[ahill1]

Nothing suggests any of that would be necessary for someone like Piccolo. They don't even need to do that for Kaioshin, why would they do it for Piccolo?

Because Piccolo is stronger than their base states, as per earlier evidences. So vs Piccolo, either they understand Piccolo's character and motivations well enough, or they use that in a rapid and quick burst, like Goku using bursts of energies not even the scouters could detect.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Because Piccolo is stronger than their base states, as per earlier evidences. So vs Piccolo, either they understand Piccolo's character and motivations well enough, or they use that in a rapid and quick burst, like Goku using bursts of energies not even the scouters could detect.

Negative, we are unaware of their base powers. Last we saw Base Trunks was able to kiai Imperfect Cell completely out of the city.

The Base powers of the MSSJ fighters is an unknown. We know it's unlikely for Piccolo to be anywhere close to even 50% Goku most likely since a variety of powers could be useful against Freeza, Piccolo is probably way weaker than that.

None of that is ever even suggested at, you are completely making this stuff up now.

 

[Yoshi]

Cell Games Base Vegeta > Cell Games Piccolo.

 

[Goku9001]

We don't know why Goku isn't concerned. He never explicitly stated why. He knows Piccolo's main aim is to have fun with them, he knows Piccolo knows he's inferior when they are SSJ. So even if they are inferior as normal Saiyans, it's to be expected Piccolo wouldn't force a win unfairly. Goku should know that well. And even if he didn't, he can still break it fast enough just for the KO blow against Piccolo. And even still, he can be pitied against Vegeta and the Saiyans firstly. No one knows who they will be facing. If Vegeta has his fight with Goku over, which happened to be the 1st one, nothing else matters to him. Simple enough.

This is all assuming that Goku just breaks the "no Super Saiyan rule" despite agreeing to it. This is argumentum ad ignorantiam. Context clearly explains why Goku wasn't concerned about Piccolo.

 

[ahill1]

@FeatsofPower

Negative, we know base Saiyans < Piccolo because of the Cell Games. So them being OK with the base limitation can be easily explained like that.

@Goku9001 why do they want to fight in base? To avoid unwanted attraction. If they do it quick enough for the human eyes, they wouldn't be breaking anything.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Negative, we know base Saiyans < Piccolo because of the Cell Games. So them being OK with the base limitation can be easily explained like that.

This idea is proven false by the Buu Saga and Super though. That's the entire reason we are discussing this. We had some indirect implications of his strength that get overruled in later sagas.

 

[ahill1]

This idea is proven false by the Buu Saga and Super though. That's the entire reason we are discussing this. We had some indirect implications of his strength that get overruled in later sagas.

It isn't proven false, because nobody says they are stronger than Piccolo in base. They said they are ok fighting in base... big difference. They can be ok with not using SSJ, again, knowing about Piccolo's standards of not wanting to win like that... or using it in a very quick burst vs Piccolo. Done.

 

[Yoshi]

There are more implications for Base Saiyans > Piccolo in the Boo Saga than there are for Piccolo > Base Saiyans in the Cell Games.

 

[FeatsofPower]

It isn't proven false, because nobody says they are stronger than Piccolo in base.

RoF Base Gohan is way stronger than Piccolo and he’s even weaker than Buu Saga Gohan.

 

[ahill1]

RoF Base Gohan is way stronger than Piccolo and he’s even weaker than Buu Saga Gohan.

Super sucks. I don't care.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Super sucks. I don't care.

It’s still canon.