Base Vegeta (Cell Games) vs Piccolo (Cell Games)

[ahill1]

Lol MikaelHarding, the legend of debate

 

[Classic Adamas]

Buu Arc: Piccolo > Goku Base >~ Vegeta base > Gohan Base > Shin > Pui Pui > Saiyan Estimate

How and why is Piccolo above all of the Saiyans and Kaioshin? Dabura specifically says three had great potential and Babidi told him to kill the "riffraff" per the Viz translation. Dabura eliminating Piccolo confirms he's below the Base Saiyans there.

 

[MikaelHarding]

How and why is Piccolo above all of the Saiyans and Kaioshin? Dabura specifically says three had great potential and Babidi told him to kill the "riffraff" per the Viz translation. Dabura eliminating Piccolo confirms he's below the Base Saiyans there.

With his weights on he's weaker then

 

[FeatsofPower]

Here's how I've been looking at it lately.

Goku 50
Vegeta 40
Gohan 30
Semi Cell 25
Future Trunks 20
Pui Pui 15
Imperfect Cell 10
Kaioshin 7.5
Piccolo 5
Android 17 2.5

Look how clean that is.

I wonder how weak RoF Gohan is, probably somewhere around Piccolo or Kaioshin. He's only a bit stronger than Piccolo, right?

 

[Kyo]

The problem with DBS is there are two different versions of it that run concurrently with each other. Unless I’ve misunderstood and everyone accepts that one version takes precedence over the other.

Base > Piccolo is difficult enough to handwave with just the Boo arc though. The weirdest thing is probably Piccolo > tired MSSJ Goku, but you can just assume Piccolo’s Cell Jr didn’t try as hard, for example. It’s weird and most definitely not what anyone would think if looking at the CG in isolation, but it’s entirely possible and works better than assuming that the Saiyans at the Budokai lied or were forgetful.

 

[FeatsofPower]

The problem with DBS is there are two different versions of it that run concurrently with each other. Unless I’ve misunderstood and everyone accepts that one version takes precedent over the other.

Sure, but there's no reason to not accept both so long as they don't contradict. It is sure a lot better than our own imaginations of how things should be don't you think?

Base > Piccolo is difficult enough to handwave with just the Boo arc though. The weirdest thing is probably Piccolo > tired MSSJ Goku, but you can just assume Piccolo’s Cell Jr didn’t try as hard, for example. It’s weird and most definitely not what anyone would think if looking at the CG in isolation, but it’s entirely possible and works better than assuming that the Saiyans at the Budokai lied or were forgetful.

Exactly, @ahill1 is trying to portray the reverse of reality here. The CG is fa more ambiguous than the Buu Saga and Super portrayals of Piccolo's power. There are ways to hand wave the CG stuff as you just did.

The reality is, AT probably forgot about how strong he portrayed Piccolo in the CG, went another direction, or just didn't really think this segment through. Piccolo must be weak to set up Kaioshin's role, who's role is to further showcase the Saiyans, being so weak he's even weaker than their weakest state to showcase the dominance of Saiyan power. That is the whole first half of the arc.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The problem with DBS is there are two different versions of it that run concurrently with each other.

The DBS anime was cancelled 5 years ago so it’s been just the manga for a while now.

I think the no SSJ rule is easy to handwave for reasons @ahill1 mentioned earlier (They can use SSJ faster than anyone sees), but there’s no handwaving Kaioshin. Sure the writing is plain horrible (Shin remembers SSJ2 Gohan right before Yakon shows up), but I don’t see AT thinking Shin could beat Base Goku.

I wonder how weak RoF Gohan is, probably somewhere around Piccolo or Kaioshin. He's only a bit stronger than Piccolo, right?

In the anime, Base Gohan is comparable to a guy who tanked and one shot Piccolo. In the movie, Gohan needs SSJ to one shot a goon who’s = Piccolo.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I think the no SSJ rule is easy to handwave for reasons @ahill1 mentioned earlier (They can use SSJ faster than anyone sees)

I'm not sure this works either. Trunks and Goten were unable to pull off this "invisible" Super Saiyan tactic. What makes you think the others could? Is there any evidence of anyone doing this? A burst of Ssj2 energy is completely different than actually performing an attack.

 

[FeatsofPower]

In the anime, Base Gohan is comparable to a guy who tanked and one shot Piccolo. In the movie, Gohan needs SSJ to one shot a goon who’s = Piccolo.

The anime is probably better to go off of. So RoF is probably only around Kaioshin then.

I'd say this sounds about right, what you think?

RoF Gohan 800
Kaioshin 750
Piccolo 500

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The weirdest thing is probably Piccolo > tired MSSJ Goku, but you can just assume Piccolo’s Cell Jr didn’t try as hard, for example.

Nah, Cell just didn't give it enough nourishment. That poor little thing. The neglected Cell Jr.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm not sure this works either. Trunks and Goten were unable to pull off this "invisible" Super Saiyan tactic. What makes you think the others could? Is there any evidence of anyone doing this? A burst of Ssj2 energy is completely different than actually performing an attack.

Fair enough, though the boys being incapable of something doesn’t mean the far experienced adults can’t either.

Closest thing that comes to mind is Vegeta switching between SSJG and SSJB in the manga, but he needed a Rosat training just to master that.

The anime is probably better to go off of. So RoF is probably only around Kaioshin then.

I'd say this sounds about right, what you think?

RoF Gohan 800
Kaioshin 750
Piccolo 500

Shouldn’t Gohan be a 1,000 to tank him?

I think trusting the anime is messy. Too much Toeism.

 

[FeatsofPower]

Fair enough, though the boys being incapable of something doesn’t mean the far experienced adults can’t either.

Sure, but the evidence seems to point in my direction more. Super Saiyan still requires effort to transform into, @ahill1 is creating an unrealistic element here that should hold absolutely zero weight in a debate.

Closest thing that comes to mind is Vegeta switching between SSJG and SSJB in the manga, but he needed a Rosat training just to master that.

Great point and yes, exactly. Special training needed to do that.

Shouldn’t Gohan be a 1,000 to tank him?

Oh yeah, forgot about that. Yeah, he did an omega tank right? Yeah, 2x is good.

I think trusting the anime is messy. Too much Toeism.

Anime is more canon than movie. No choice with this here I'd say.

 

[ahill1]

Tbh, I think the Boo saga implications are easier to handwave. Goku used SSJ2 in a burst and was back to SSJ instantly. With their mastery over SSJ, I just don't see that as not being possible for an one time attack when charging at Piccolo. Goten was just not careful enough. He stood in SSJ for a while and then de-transformed. He didn't think it through in making it as quick as possible so no one could see it... he was caught in the heat of the moment, as was kid Trunks. They didn't think about the consequences of their acts in face of the media... they did it thinking on winning mostly and were mad because it gave each other an advantage, not because they would gather attention. That wasn't in their concern. The adults would devise it not to gather attention. If you are speaking about Super, there's a scene in the manga in which Goku goes from SSJ3 to SSJG quick enough just to KO Trunks and then was rapidly back at base, it was so fast Beerus wondered if Goku used SSJG and Whis confirmed it... and Goku's mastery over SSJG there wasn't nearly as efficient as his mastery over SSJ in the Boo arc.

I just find it weird the Cell Junior wouldn't put Piccolo down. Holding back not to kill is one thing, but holding back not to put Piccolo in a situation Gohan would feel agony is something that doesn't make sense.

 

[ahill1]

 

[ahill1]

That was before any RoSaT training btw. Goku hadn't mastery over God like Vegeta achieved earlier. And hadn't the mastery over it the same level as with MSSJ, which was amost a base lik state to him.

 

[SIAD]

Lol MikaelHarding, the legend of debate

@ahill1 What do you mean by "the legend of the debate"?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Anime is more canon than movie. No choice with this here I'd say.

Maybe? Some folks say movie isn’t canon because it’s a DBZ movie, but that makes no sense. Movie is Toriyama’s direct script, adaptations were Toei hacking it up. There’s even rumor that the anime never came back so they could make more movies.

I just don’t want to mess with the anime and end up having to scale the anime ToP dawg. It’s madness.

I just find it weird the Cell Junior wouldn't put Piccolo down. Holding back not to kill is one thing, but holding back not to put Piccolo in a situation Gohan would feel agony is something that doesn't make sense.

It’s not any weirder than Kuririn being the first human to get KO’d. Piccolo is just man enough to get his ass kicked standing up.

 

[FeatsofPower]

I just don’t want to mess with the anime and end up having to scale the anime ToP dawg. It’s madness.

Now we are talking. Anime scaling is garbage. We are far better off with the manga, and the manga approach seems to go with the movies as canon unles Toyo makes some changes. So movie + manga might be the best way and keeping anything in the anime that doesn't contradict I'd say.

 

[FeatsofPower]

That was before any RoSaT training btw. Goku hadn't mastery over God like Vegeta achieved earlier. And hadn't the mastery over it the same level as with MSSJ, which was amost a base lik state to him.

Isn't God a better form that all the others? Not taxing at all?

 

[FeatsofPower]

Tbh, I think the Boo saga implications are easier to handwave.

Dude, Vegeta says he will win the tournament in Base with Android 18 right next to him and then his son holds his own against her wearing a freaking costume. And then Base Gotenks vs Base Vegetto is an insane blowout. Read the room brah.