Big ol' Z Sword

[kriss-]

I said greater power than Gohan and Gotenks. Goku was a weakling to First Form Freeza when he arrived on Namek. Does that mean the gravity training he experienced didn't give him great gains? Of course it doesn't.

7 years of hard gravity training has been established to give Vegeta minimal gains. Gohan swung a sword around for a day.

Do the math.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Yeah. Going from being far weaker than Goku to reaching Super Saiyan 2 is nothing.

His power drawn to its limits had him equal to Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Super Saiyan 2 Goku is far far far weaker than Gohan and Gotenks.

Vegeta training alone surpassed Gohan and Gotenks. You can apply any formula you want, but it doesn't change the fact that Vegeta still considers it a great method of training.

 

[kriss-]

Vegetas increases were minimal in the official Manga. Gohan swinging a sword around would therefore result in minimal gains in the official Manga.

From an official Manga debate, you lose this one.

Beerus was alternating his battle power in Battle of Gods, if he used the same power, he would of killed everybody weaker then Ultimate Gohan. Therefore your feats of Vegeta fending off Beerus mean jack shit. Therefore proving that gravity training didn't result in him getting stronger in BoG, he was preventing himself from getting rusty.

From a Battle of Gods debate, you lose.

From an official Manga only argument:

After hard training everyday, for 7 years straight, his increases were minimal., This works in line with Toriyama's statement that there are limits to muscle strength. So we're back to my original argument: Gohan only swung a heavy sword around for a day, and achieved no new transformations or Ki control.

^ This point still stands.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You have no clue what you're talking about. Vegeta was training to surpass Goku. The idea of him only training to not get rusty is your own personal fanon.

Vegeta using 150x gravity reached Super Saiyan 2 and surpassed Goku (who he was far weaker than) at the Cell Games. You don't know the extent of his inferiority, so your numbers are really your own opinion. You can't gauge what he gained based on that alone.

Yeah, no. Beers knocked Gohan out with a single attack and Vegeta put up the best fight of everyone there. There's a reason why he was noted to surpass Goku and not Gohan. Vegeta was the strongest one right after Goku. You lose.

 

[kriss-]

Nothing in Battle of Gods ascertains what you're arguing and anything you could argue, from Vegeta's feats, are easily counter-able, and I did counter them.

Get back to my last contention or just give up:

After hard training everyday, for 7 years straight, his increases were minimal., This works in line with Toriyama's statement that there are limits to muscle strength. So we're back to my original argument: Gohan only swung a heavy sword around for a day, and achieved no new transformations or Ki control.

^ This point still stands.

You continue to avoid this because you know that you can't counter it, not from an official Manga source.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

You didn't counter anything. Vegeta put up the best fight against Beers and saying otherwise really is your opinion. I guess Vegeta challenged Beers after seeing Gohan get knocked out in one kick because he thought he'd looked cool doing it. Not.

Another thing: you act as if your opinion on gains is a fact when you can't even produce any official power levels to follow that way of thinking. Outside of that, you say Vegeta is continuing to use a regimen he can't gain anything from while being unable to explain why he'd continue to use it in the first place. On top of that, you choose to ignore Super even though AT is actively working on that as well.....

 

[ahill1]

Goku also powered up a lot training under the 100G in the spaceship (8,000 to 90,000) and he was still able to increase the Kaioken to ten-fold (which is a technique build up upon chi, mind you).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Zenkai.

 

[ahill1]

Yeah I think t0sh will say the Zenkai thing, but comments from Goku still implies the gravity train was the main factor to his power increase.

 

[Papasmurf]

Lol @ T0sh discrediting Super

Toriyama came out and said he came up with the idea for the Future Trunks arc and Goku Black lol

 

[sei'taer]

Goku also powered up a lot training under the 100G in the spaceship (8,000 to 90,000) and he was still able to increase the Kaioken to ten-fold (which is a technique build up upon chi, mind you).

Actually I'd tend to agree that goku got more from zenkais out of the gravity training. That was the point in the series when zenkais were king, and the narrator even points out that goku is getting a lot of them.

 

[kriss-]

Goku got Zenkais from the training, this is blatantly stated, it wasn't from gravity training. I've brought forward enough evidence to show that from an official source, the Manga, characters don't get stronger from weighted/gravity training during the Majin Boo Saga.

Vegeta trained heavily for 7 years straight, every single day and only received minimal increases.
Gohan swung a sword for a day and wasn't training anywhere near as much or as hard as Vegeta.

Do the math ;D

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Goku got 7 Zenkais (started with 10 senzu's and had 3 when finished) and ended up at 90k when finished. That's it. To say the gravity training didn't allow him to get a lot stronger is a straight-up lie. The Zenkais allowed him to handle higher levels of gravity and Kaio-Ken.

 

[kriss-]

Goku pushed himself to his limits and to near death and used the Zenkais to get stronger. The gravity training allowed him to wear his body down much quicker.

Simple stuff.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Like I said, he got 7 Zenkais in total. Kaio already established that training in a place with heightened gravity would allow Goku to get a lot stronger, so he obviously got stronger from Zenkais and gravity training.

Simple stuff.

 

[ahill1]

I didn't say the Zenkais didn't help Goku get stronger, they sure did. But saying the gravity didn't take a role on that too is BS. Like I said there are comments implying the gravity training was worthwile (mainly from Goku).

There's also Vegeta going from way weaker than Cell Games Goku to Cell Games Gohan's level and I doubt Vegeta would even consider the possibility of training with the gravity if he knew it was fruitless (you know, he used it to train for the androids). Hell Vegeta opted to train in the gravity room even in Battle of Gods, what would not be the case had it been as pointless as implied.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Vegeta decided to go back into the gravity room in the Goku Black saga as well.

 

[kriss-]

Dragonball Super isn't the official source, which agrees with my line of logic and not yours.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Super is an official source. AT is working on it. You don't get to choose which is official and which isn't. That's being bias.

 

[kriss-]

Nope.

All Toriyama does is write out a rough sketch and shoots it off to Toei, if you believed that, then you're forced to believe GT is an official source since it involves as much work from Akira Topriyama.

Toriyama has never once said Super is a direct continuation of the official Manga, like he did with Battle of Gods, not once.

With Toriyama's own admission, I am in the position to decide that it in no way reflects future events that proceed the Manga because it contradicts what he already considers canon.