Can someone explain to me...

[ahill1]

I agree with Kenshi here, both the anime and the manga seem trash. Whilst I see why some people would find the anime even trashier, with its incosistencies being from episode to episode (mostly due to the person in charge of each episode changing), the manga still seems pretty lacklustre to me... nothing in it seemed to entertain me, and like Kenshi mentioned, the incosistencies happened during the Zamasu saga, plus the current ones, would imply Toyotaro isn't so good at keeping the material so consistent either. While I agree that Toyotaro might care more than the people at TOEI to keep DB a semi consistent work and isn't simply a cash grab, that doesn't make him free from criticism, and many of my criticism stems from how lacklustre the manga, overall, seems. It seems to me more of a fanfic than anything, with many scenes being reharsed, many lines being repeated for the sake of it being "cool" and bringing some nostalgia (which, at least with me, doesn't work), and everything seems just so explained that it doesn't seem like the old Dragon Ball, e.g the fight with Hit, where they spent half a chapter explaining Vegeta losing 90%+ of its power and Goku SSJG being above Vegeta, like if Beerus and Whis were directly answering the questions from us fans, which just seems very unlike a Dragon Ball story telling, in which most things wouldn't be so minuciously explained to us... same thing with Vegeta quickly switching from God to Blue, with Goku minuciosuly explaining Vegeta's step so the audience wouldn't get lost on a "bit" obscure thing the character performed.

The characters just act like they are directly interacting with us, the audience, and speak in terms only a fan obsessed with power scaling would speak, sometimes, imo, like Whis also narrating the first fight between Goku and future Trunks, and making a point to say tiny details like "Goku is, albeit slightly, stronger than Trunks, although bla bla bla", which doesn't seem like a DB way of doing things.

I think both the anime and the manga are trash, none seems to entertain me, although I get that the anime might be even trashier. I just think none makes up for a Dragon Ball continuation.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

The manga doesn't seem lacklustre to me, at-least not as much as the anime. Initially AT even said that Toyotaro didn't do his own thing enough in the series and encouraged him to add a little bit of his own stuff into AT's outlines, so if the manga does feel like a fan-fic that's closer to a fan-fic written by AT.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Also I think the anime with its flanderazation of Goku makes it really weird and maybe even jarring when Goku ever got serious or the worst case was Ultra-Instinct. You got this overly goofy and overly stupid Goku, who doesn't even know what a kiss is but then when he gets Ultra-Instinct all of a sudden he is ultra serious, trying to be kewl and all. It just comes-off forced. Very unauthentic. In the original DragonBall that worked because Goku's character had a serious side to him and wasn't so stupid so when he became a Super-Saiyan for the first time for example that didn't feel forced. The anime is just annoying.

 

[ahill1]

Also I think the anime with its flanderazation of Goku makes it really weird and maybe even jarring when Goku ever got serious or the worst case was Ultra-Instinct. You got this overly goofy and overly stupid Goku, who doesn't even know what a kiss is but then when he gets Ultra-Instinct all of a sudden he is ultra serious, trying to be kewl and all. It just comes-off forced. Very unauthentic. In the original DragonBall that worked because Goku's character had a serious side to him and wasn't so stupid so when he became a Super-Saiyan for the first time for example that didn't feel forced. The anime is just annoying.

Well, the manga always seemed lacklustre to me. Didn't ever got excited by it, unlike in the manga written by Toriyama. But opinions, I guess.

But in that I concur with you, Goku's character is just annoying in the anime.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Also I think the anime with its flanderazation of Goku makes it really weird and maybe even jarring when Goku ever got serious or the worst case was Ultra-Instinct. You got this overly goofy and overly stupid Goku, who doesn't even know what a kiss is but then when he gets Ultra-Instinct all of a sudden he is ultra serious, trying to be kewl and all. It just comes-off forced. Very unauthentic. In the original DragonBall that worked because Goku's character had a serious side to him and wasn't so stupid so when he became a Super-Saiyan for the first time for example that didn't feel forced. The anime is just annoying.

Well, the manga always seemed lacklustre to me. Didn't ever got excited by it, unlike in the manga written by Toriyama. But opinions, I guess.

But in that I concur with you, Goku's character is just annoying in the anime.

Yeah, it was cringey how he went from really stupid idiot (like beyond stupid) who wants to do nothing but fight and apparently knows nothing-else to all of a sudden be ultra-serious, rly trying hard to be kewl Ultra-Instinct Goku. The characterisation is also inconsistent.

 

[Mystic]

I obviously haven't kept up with Super, but it seems to me that at the points the anime and manga differ, the manga is always better than the anime. 2

But let's be real. This whole facking series was made to sell merch and make money. Quality be damned.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I obviously haven't kept up with Super, but it seems to me that at the points the anime and manga differ, the manga is always better than the anime. 2

But let's be real. This whole facking series was made to sell merch and make money. Quality be damned.

Amen my good brother.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Manga is as well, though compared to the anime with it's time being spent on worthless characters and adding far more instant power ups, it may as well be considered a masterpiece. At least the manga attempted to bring forth explanations for some dubious moments such as Base/SSJ Galu doing better against Hit than SSB Vegeta did.

 

[Future Warrior]

Don't take this personally or anything but I'm surprised you haven't noticed the hypocrisy when making this thread, for example - ''bash the manga every chance they get''. I'm not defending the anime but maybe the criticism is deserved when calling the recent chapters into question.

I mean you're making claims and spewing them like fact when it's just based on your own subjectivity like the manga being >>> anime. I can easily argue that the manga's writing is just as atrocious as the anime if not moreso, but that's besides the point.

See the double standard?

Please don't take this as an insult. Just felt like something I needed to address.

One thing that I'll say is that although I'm not the biggest fan of either product I heavily disagree that the manga is this ''god'' compared to the anime. I think it's trash and Toyotaro is a complete joke of a ''successor''.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

It's not here if you meant that. It's just all over the place I've seen this attitude and it's annoying as fack. The manga really is a god compared to the anime. At-least the manga doesn't have annoying protagonists or if that does then it's less noticeable for me.

In the anime for some-reason we're supposed to feel sad when they make it look like Goku died, but really didn't he have it coming? In the anime he is just plain stupid. He was the reason for the tournament happening in the first place, he even reminded Zenō of the stupid tournament. It was his fault. Yet we are somehow supposed to all be sad when they make it look like he died to the Genki-Dama, like it's his own fault. In DragonBall we were sad when Goku died against Raditz because Raditz started the fight, Goku didn't even want to fight him in the first place. Goku even showed him mercy but Raditz didn't change. Goku died trying to protect the earth and his son. How is this comparable, I mean seriously.

 

[ahill1]

He was the reason for the tournament happening in the first place, he even reminded Zenō of the stupid tournament

Didn't he do the same in the manga? There's a while I have read it, but iirc Goku went to Zeno's place through the buttom so he could make sure he didn't forget about his promise at the last between-universes tournament,

DragonBall we were sad when Goku died against Raditz because Raditz started the fight, Goku didn't even want to fight him in the first place. Goku even showed him mercy but Raditz didn't change. Goku died trying to protect the earth and his son. How is this comparable, I mean seriously.

That's kind of in Goku's character though. In the original manga for example, Kaio-sama insisted that Goku shouldn't even approach Freeza as such could lead to all being destroyed, yet Goku clearly stated that if Freeza's so strong, he wanted to have a look on him. While I agree that Goku's stupidity is taken to a more extreme in the anime, Goku wishing to battle strong opponents or do things for the sake of having an entertaining battle are things that can be tied to his original manga character. Although yeah, doing so at the expense of other's lives is alien to him.

It's also worth noting that in the anime, much like in the manga, Zeno already planned/or was at least thinking in destroying all Universes which he'd consider useless and weak, so Goku's insistance in having a Tournament kind of gave all of the Universes a chance to fight for their own survival. So even though Goku was still only thinking into satisfying his own desires for battle, he still ended up handing to them the opportunity to show their own worthy at the tournament. I am pretty sure that if Goku ended up dying at the manga's ToP, we'd be supposed to feel sad as well.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I forgot whether Goku did in the manga, to be honest. Did he?

Hey, at-least in Freeza's case it was for the good of the universe. Sure he wanted to see Freeza because he was strong as-well, but Freeza was destroying and enslaving Planets for decades at that point it was about time some-one stepped-up and shut his mouth. In the end it might have just been a positive result to his some-what selfish desire (I'd argue other-wise), but it was a positive out-come nonetheless. On-top of that Kaio told him to just take Gohan & Kuririn & Bulma and leave Namek straight-away, it'd seem out of character for Goku to just leave the Namekians to suffer at Freeza's hand.

And like in the Raditz case it's shown that whilst Goku does like to fight strong opponents. He didn't like it if it threatened others around him or if he was too outmatched. He told Raditz to leave, even-though Raditz was a strong opponent, he didn't want anything to do with him.

 

[ahill1]

I forgot whether Goku did in the manga, to be honest. Did he?

Yes, he did, much to Beerus' dissatisfaction. The first chapter of the Tournament of Power in the manga was cut to Beerus being annoyed at Goku's decision of going to Zeno's place and reminding him of his promise at the last Tournament. Goku then meets the two Zenos playing with the planets. In both medias the ToP just occured because Goku reminded Zeno of that, and in both medias lots of Universes were saved due to that, as Zeno already planned to destroy them due to them not developing or some shit.

Hey, at-least in Freeza's case it was for the good of the universe.

Then he'd have mentioned it, probably. The fact that when Kaio mentioned how dangerous Freeza was and that approaching him could lead to the end of their own galaxy (or something like this), Goku just uttered the words "but if he is so strong, then I want to have a look on him", merely expressing that such a strong enemy would satisfy his desires of battling a strong opponent, implies that that was what he was thinking. Were he thinking at something other than having an entertaining battle, he'd have mentioned it when Kaio brought it up, through a statement like "Besides, we can't let the Namekians suffer at his hand". He not mentioning it implies such thought didn't even crossed his mind imo. Also, it's worth noting that he didn't even know exactly the Namekians were all being exterminated by Freeza at that time or that Freeza planned to destroy all the planet. He knew Freeza was collecting the Dragon Balls like Vegeta, but he could have gotten the information that lots of Namekians were killed by Freeza when he tapped Kuririn's mind and accessed his memories of the whole situation.

Those weren't Goku's only selfish demeanors either. As an example of behaviors taken by the sake of wishing to satisfy his own desires for battle, we have also Goku sparing Vegeta's life, although he knew that'd be a risk for the Earth. He even admitted that such was a selfish favor he was asking Kuririn, that is, he just wished to have a go on a rather strong opponent again, much for Earth's risk. Goku didn't want to kill Gero either, even though he knew about the risk the Earth would be exposed were him left alive and constructed both assassins androids... the first reason mentioned by him was, again, his desire to fight such strong opponents. Whilst he mentioned how it isn't cool to kill off someone who hasn't done anything wrong, it came off more as a secondary reason. The first reason was the aforementioned one, plus his face of unpleaseness towards such idea that wouldn't lead to an entertaining battle, when such was brought up by Bulma. Well, that's it.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He said next time he'll be higher than Vegeta though and he was right he way surpassed Vegeta on Namek. 90,000 and capable of Kaio-Ken x10. :mikey :mikey :mikey

He did know though that Freeza was working with Vegeta and he already know how Vegeta was. He knew that Freeza and his army were dick-heads.

 

[ahill1]

90,000 and capable of Kaio-Ken x10.

He was surprised with the result of his training though, he said so himself when throwing that rock and catching it by himself. His prowess surprised even him. Also, was him planning to train in a 100x gravity, or was that something he only thought of when knowing that there was an enemy way stronger than Vegeta and that he had to go to Namek to save Gohan and the others? It's possible that such training method didn't even cross his mind when he begged Kuririn to let Vegeta live.

He did know though that Freeza was working with Vegeta and he already know how Vegeta was. He knew that Freeza and his army were dick-heads.

Sure, but he still said that if Freeza's that strong, then he wanted to meet with him. Whilst Freeza being bad influenced Goku to fight him, of course, it seems that Goku's will to meet Freeza on the spaceship was based off of his will to challenge himself against strong enemies.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

90,000 and capable of Kaio-Ken x10.

He was surprised with the result of his training though, he said so himself when throwing that rock and catching it by himself. His prowess surprised even him. Also, was him planning to train in a 100x gravity, or was that something he only thought of when knowing that there was an enemy way stronger than Vegeta and that he had to go to Namek to save Gohan and the others? It's possible that such training method didn't even cross his mind when he begged Kuririn to let Vegeta live.

He did know though that Freeza was working with Vegeta and he already know how Vegeta was. He knew that Freeza and his army were dick-heads.

Sure, but he still said that if Freeza's that strong, then he wanted to meet with him. Whilst Freeza being bad influenced Goku to fight him, of course, it seems that Goku's will to meet Freeza on the spaceship was based off of his will to challenge himself against strong enemies.

Sure he was surprised but he there's a huge difference between 18k and 90k. Not only that but he also developed the Kaio-Ken to be able use that at even higher levels.

Yeah, Freeza was bad and Kuririn and Gohan and Bulma were scared for their lives on Namek so Goku probably wanted to fight Freeza either-way.

 

[ahill1]

Sure he was surprised but he there's a huge difference between 18k and 90k. Not only that but he also developed the Kaio-Ken to be able use that at even higher levels.

But such difference was accomplished mostly by the method to which Goku performed his training. Goku even stated that he didn't think training in a high gravity like this would bring up such huge gains, placing emphasis on the type of training for such, so it's pretty doubtful Goku'd even be near as strong as that were him to perform another kind of training. At that time he only wished to let Vegeta live so he could potentially challenge himself again. It was all a challenge on his mind, and his Saiyajins' instincts of being excited for battle were keeping him from killing Vegeta, much like he gave Piccolo a Senzu 6 years ago so he wouldn't lose a powerful enemy. Goku sometimes takes the riskier and more selfish decision all for the sake of having an entertaining match and enemy.

Yeah, Freeza was bad and Kuririn and Gohan and Bulma were scared for their lives on Namek so Goku probably wanted to fight Freeza either-way.

Freeza hadn't met any of them though, and Kaio-Sama said it was safer for Goku to get them and escape from the planet without interacting directly with Freeza, to which Goku responded by saying that if Freeza's really that strong, he wanted to have a look on him then. I think this just goes on to show on how many times Goku's Saiyajin's instincts talks louder and influences his decisions.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well, in the end Goku's fight against Freeza still had a positive result even if it might have been slightly selfish according to some.

And Goku was slightly higher than Piccolo at the beginning of DragonBall Z.

 

[ahill1]

Well, in the end Goku's fight against Freeza still had a positive result even if it might have been slightly selfish according to some.

Sure, but the ToP had a positive outcome as well, as in, all the Universes which were being planned to be destroyed had the chance to show their worth in the Tournament :mikey .

And Goku was slightly higher than Piccolo at the beginning of DragonBall Z.

Yeah, but Piccolo was developing a technique that could kill Goku if charged in the due time. It was still a risky decision imo seeing as his advantage was minimal.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

Well, in the end Goku's fight against Freeza still had a positive result even if it might have been slightly selfish according to some.

Sure, but the ToP had a positive outcome as well, as in, all the Universes which were being planned to be destroyed had the chance to show their worth in the Tournament :mikey .

And Goku was slightly higher than Piccolo at the beginning of DragonBall Z.

Yeah, but Piccolo was developing a technique that could kill Goku if charged in the due time. It was still a risky decision imo seeing as his advantage was minimal.

Only because of #17's wish, if someone-else had made the wish who knew what could have happened?

A technique that takes forever to charge. Goku could already sense Ki as-well, so hiding to charge doesn't work either.