Cell Arc Inconsistency/Bad Writing thread

[ahill1]

Anyway, whether Cell just logically deduced Vegeta and Goku were killed or the spy robot showed him the footage or whatever. I definitely think Goku in Cell's timeline was killed by the Androids and not a heart virus. I think the virus only took out Goku in Trunks timeline.

As shown in the manga/anime. Trunks kills Freeza in Cell's timeline, so I don't think Trunks came to Cell's timeline to kill Freeza and say hello, his main mission is to give Goku the heart virus medicine.

I also go down this route. The problem I found (which SIAD had brought up) was that Cell states Vegeta's stronger than anticipated... and Vegeta in the Cell's timeline, knowing the imminent threat, would train just as hard. So you think Cell's data on Vegeta was outdated and his spy robot might not have been there when Vegeta was killed by the androids? That counter-point would be that Cell knew Vegeta was killed by the androids, but then you counter that by saying Cell just assumed it was the only logical scenario, right? Well, that might work. They are still speculation, but they do work.

 

[Victorious]

But anyway, i still think there is a link between Trunks killing Freeza, [more so with Goku getting an antidote from Trunks], Goku living longer, and the general power of the Androids. To say it's just random doesnt make much sense because a lot of events in Cell's timeline mirror the main timeline. [accept for Cell showing up]. And the Androids power being equal to the main timeline Androids makes sense. It would make less sense for the Androids in Cell's timeline to be as weak as the ones in the Future Trunks timeline.

Except that there's no logical correlation between any of the events leading up to the change in #17/18's strength and more importantly, their personality difference. There's no reason for Gero to limit their strength or alter their personalities in Trunks' timeline if not only was Goku's death the main cause, but he stopped collecting data on Goku after the Saiyan Arc.

There were indeed work arounds that could explain this. For instance, suppose Goku used the Dragon Balls to locate Gero just after the Mecha Freeza fight and warn him of what's to come. Gero would then have current data to make #17 and #18 stronger as well as moving his lab meaning the Z-Warriors can't relocate him and would offer a logical reason for the time travel changes.
Unfortunately, that's just fan-fiction and what we got was Toriyama not providing a concise series of events and forcing fans to grasp at straws to make sense of the whole thing.

I'm just saying Gero stopped personally tracking Goku after the Saiyan arc yes, but in the Future Trunks timeline he may have gotten the news of Goku's death. He's connected to the Briefs family and the Briefs family is connected to Goku. Thus he'd have no reason to over hax the Androids #17 and #18 in the Future Trunks timeline. It's just about general preparation not him knowing Goku's exact power. If he knows Goku is alive he'd be much more cautious and hax them.

This is all just fan theory but it makes plenty of sense.

So basically my idea is, in the main timeline and Cell's timeline. He has gotten no word of Goku's death, thus assumes Goku is alive, thus prepares for an encounter with Goku and haxes #17 and #18 just in case.

But there are other inconsistencies that really can't be explained logically via cause and effect. Like for instance why does #19 appear, why is there a #16, why did Gero turn himself into an Android, etc? There's no mention of any of those things happening in Cell's timeline. Not sure about #19 or Gero being an Android, BUT I definitely don't think #16 existed in Cell's timeline. Of course in Cell's timeline there is no time travelling Cell who shows up, so perhaps Cell himself caused the differences. But what cause and effect mechanism with Cell just living out in the forest in his larval form for 4 years could possibly explain all those differences? None really. It's just a "whoops, some guy traveled back so he totally changed things". Kinda lame explanation and poor writing.

 

[ahill1]

@Vic why do you think that the Trunks from Cell's timeline had planned his time machine to go to in a era in which the androids were not even conceived yet (even before Mecha Freeza's arrival)? To create an era free of the androids?

 

[Victorious]

@Vic why do you think that the Trunks from Cell's timeline had planned his time machine to go to in a era in which the androids were not even conceived yet (even before Mecha Freeza's arrival)? To create an era free of the androids?

So he could fight Garlic Junior.

 

[Victorious]

What's funny is it takes 4 years for Cell to hatch out of his larval form into his first/Imperfect form. And The Trunks from his timeline just so happens to be travelling to a seemingly random time period around the Garlic Junior saga 4 years before the Android saga...it fits so smoothly and is sooo coincidental that Cell matures within a few days of the events of the Androids saga. It would have been better writing if AT had just had Cell punch the coordinates in and not Trunks. I'm pretty sure the story says that Cell didnt do anything but go into the time coordinates Trunks had already punched in. lol

 

[ahill1]

What's funny is it takes 4 years for Cell to hatch out of his larval form into his first/Imperfect form. And The Trunks from his timeline just so happens to be travelling to a seemingly random time period around the Garlic Junior saga 4 years before the Android saga...it fits so smoothly and is sooo coincidental that Cell matures within a few days of the events of the Androids saga. It would have been better writing if AT had just had Cell punch the coordinates in and not Trunks. I'm pretty sure the story says that Cell didnt do anything but go into the time coordinates Trunks had already punched in. lol

Yeah, it said that Cell just pressed the buttom and didn't plan anything up. That's what I'm saying. Cell ending up in the main timeline seems... convenient and random.

 

[SIAD]

Even so, it seems that Cell only knows that Goku died in some unknown way, since he was only impressed that he was still alive on the Main Line, while he knows that Vegeta was killed by the Androids, as he comments. That's why I think Goku was the one who killed Mecha Frieza in the Cell Line.

 It would have been another Future Trunks who killed Frieza and King Cold in the Cell Line, then why the Trunks (Cell Line) thought to travel to the past if he had already killed his Androids? Do you think that in a hypothetical case, the Androids (Cell Line), could have killed the Z Warriors (including Goku), considering that the latter was not a complete forrage and could escape with teleportation?

 I know that DBM is very inconsistent, since they believe that the Android # 17 is> Goku Base (EoZ) and believes that the Futuro Androids are not very inferior to Dabura, but I like their theory that in the Cell Line, it was similar to that of Future Trunks, the Trunks (Cell Line) traveled to another Past, where he discovered the stopping devices of the Androids, then he returned to his future (Cell Line) and there he stopped them and destroyed them. Later, Trunks was preparing to travel to that Timeline, but for as long as he programmed it, Cell appeared in surprise and I pass what we already know. The Time Machine still did not have the exact coordinates and that's why I travel a year before.

 

[ahill1]

It would have been another Future Trunks who killed Frieza and King Cold in the Cell Line, then why the Trunks (Cell Line) thought to travel to the past if he had already killed his Androids?

Maybe to create an era/timeline free of the androids and in which the Z warriors and the Earth population could live in peace? Iirc Trunks mentioned when moving Goku to Kame-Sen'nin's house that he or Bulma stated that it would be nice having a timeline in which all that shit the androids caused didn't happen.

 

[SIAD]

It would have been another Future Trunks who killed Frieza and King Cold in the Cell Line, then why the Trunks (Cell Line) thought to travel to the past if he had already killed his Androids?

Maybe to create an era/timeline free of the androids and in which the Z warriors and the Earth population could live in peace? Iirc Trunks mentioned when moving Goku to Kame-Sen'nin's house that he or Bulma stated that it would be nice having a timeline in which all that shit the androids caused didn't happen.

But still, it does not make sense what I say? Cell knows that Vegeta in his Timeline was killed by the Androids, for while he does not specify how Goku dies. Cell to know that Vegeta was killed by the Androids, is because his Mini Robot spy him and therefore knew the power of Vegeta in his Timeline, later he learned that Vegeta (Arc Android) was >> Vegeta (Line Cell).

 

[ahill1]

Yeah, that's a fair point I guess. But one could say that he just chose not to specify the cause of Goku's death, whereas he did specify it in Vegeta's case. Cell isn't a robot to operate all his comments in the same way... oh wait, he is a robot!!! Lol.

 

[Victorious]

Even so, it seems that Cell only knows that Goku died in some unknown way, since he was only impressed that he was still alive on the Main Line, while he knows that Vegeta was killed by the Androids, as he comments. That's why I think Goku was the one who killed Mecha Frieza in the Cell Line.

He's surprised Goku's alive because Goku was dead by that time in his timeline. Goku was the first into battle, it probably mirrored the main timeline in that sense. Vegeta shows up later according to his own whim.

You're also putting word's into Cell's mouth. Cell never insinuates that Goku's death in his timeline was a mystery.

 

[SIAD]

I also remember that when he saw Kamiccolo, he was not surprised that he was still alive, that means that at the moment that Cell met Kamiccolo, Piccolo had not died in the Cell Line. That means that in the Cell Line, at least just after the arrival of the Androids, Goku and Vegeta were dead (recently Vegeta), while Piccolo was killed some time later (as in the Future Trunks Line). according to a Special Super Manga recently released).

  Then it makes sense that the Cell Line was similar to the Future Trunks, since at least it seems that Goku died in some way (probably because of the disease), Vegeta was killed and was not as powerful as in the Arc Android and Piccolo died later in both Lines.

 

[Victorious]

People act like we're just making this "Trunks killed Freeza in Cell's timeline" shit up. It was fucking shown...period. The guys arguing against us are the ones making shit up.

Do you guys think if the manga panels had Goku's fists wrecking Mecha Freeza's face when Cell is talking about his origins, and made no mention of Trunks' cells not being taken during that sequence, that any of us here would be like "well yeah, maybe a time travelling Trunks killed Freeza in Cell's timeline?" hurr durr. Uhh no. We wouldn't.

If AT really goofed on this surely he'd re-release the manga with changes. For instance AT goofed on Vegeta's powerlevel vs Recoome, but there was a re-release and it was quickly changed to the accurate depiction.

 

[SIAD]

Even so, it seems that Cell only knows that Goku died in some unknown way, since he was only impressed that he was still alive on the Main Line, while he knows that Vegeta was killed by the Androids, as he comments. That's why I think Goku was the one who killed Mecha Frieza in the Cell Line.

He's surprised Goku's alive because Goku was dead by that time in his timeline. Goku was the first into battle, it probably mirrored the main timeline in that sense. Vegeta shows up later according to his own whim.

You're also putting word's into Cell's mouth. Cell never insinuates that Goku's death in his timeline was a mystery.

But just by mentioning how Vegeta died and not how Goku died, he does so as he probably does not know how Goku died.

 

[Victorious]

I also remember that when he saw Kamiccolo, he was not surprised that he was still alive, that means that at the moment that Cell met Kamiccolo, Piccolo had not died in the Cell Line. That means that in the Cell Line, at least just after the arrival of the Androids, Goku and Vegeta were dead (recently Vegeta), while Piccolo was killed some time later (as in the Future Trunks Line). according to a Special Super Manga recently released).

  Then it makes sense that the Cell Line was similar to the Future Trunks, since at least it seems that Goku died in some way (probably because of the disease), Vegeta was killed and was not as powerful as in the Arc Android and Piccolo died later in both Lines.

Pretty sure Piccolo was killed on the same day as Vegeta and everyone else in the Future Trunks timeline. At least that's how it was in the History of Trunks special. He's the first to get killed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgvHaI11X5s

So it's actually the opposite. Cell isnt surprised at Piccolo being alive because Cell's timeline mirror's the main timeline. When Cell arrives in Gingertown in the main timeline it's several days after the Android fight.

But yes they all do end up getting killed, despite their training. The Androids are stronger.

But in Cell's timeline I do think #17 and #18 probably showed up first, and not Gero and #19..but even that's possible i guess, LOL who knows.

But just by mentioning how Vegeta died and not how Goku died, he does so as he probably does not know how Goku died.

He only mentions how Vegeta dies when he's fighting Vegeta in his 2nd form. He couldnt understand why he was getting his ass kicked by a guy who in his timeline was killed by the androids. There's nothing to suggest he doesnt know how Goku was killed in his timeline.

 

[SIAD]

I did not remember that Cell appeared days after the fight against the Androids. Recently a Special Manga of DBS came out showing us Gohan wanting to revive the Z Warriors since Piccolo was still alive, but unfortunately Pilaf first gathered the Dragon Balls and asked to become children. That's why Piccolo was not the first to die.

  What was shown to Mecha Freezer and King Cold being killed by Future Trunks in the Cell Line, seems almost like an error, or maybe simply AT did not want to get entangled with the Time Lines (they are very tangled) and simply wanted to copy and paste the scenes.

  I see it as it all makes more sense to think that it was Goku who killed Mecha Frieza and King Cold, but at that time AT did not want to entangle even more the tangle of the Temporal Lines.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Victorious[/mention]

I'm in agreement with you (in that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza in Cell's TL), but you are missing some things. Cell stated that it's weird how Vegeta wasn't killed by the androids when he sees Vegeta flying towards the big chi he sensed:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P9.4
Cell: “Vegeta?! So he hasn’t been killed by No.17 and No.18 yet…And even he’s got far more power than I predicted…”

Viz omitted him being killed by the androids for some reason.

 

[SIAD]

@Victorious

I'm in agreement with you (in that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza in Cell's TL), but you are missing some things. Cell stated that it's weird how Vegeta wasn't killed by the androids when he sees Vegeta flying towards the big chi he sensed:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P9.4
Cell: “Vegeta?! So he hasn’t been killed by No.17 and No.18 yet…And even he’s got far more power than I predicted…”

Viz omitted him being killed by the androids for some reason.

I was referring to that part, in which Cell says impressed that Vegeta had not yet died.

 

[Victorious]

@Victorious

I'm in agreement with you (in that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza in Cell's TL), but you are missing some things. Cell stated that it's weird how Vegeta wasn't killed by the androids when he sees Vegeta flying towards the big chi he sensed:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P9.4
Cell: “Vegeta?! So he hasn’t been killed by No.17 and No.18 yet…And even he’s got far more power than I predicted…”

Viz omitted him being killed by the androids for some reason.

I was referring to that part, in which Cell says impressed that Vegeta had not yet died.

I'd like to see what Jap anime says. Anyway, just cause he says the Androids were the ones to kill Vegeta...that this somehow means Goku's death in his timeline was a "mystery" to him. It doesnt matter either way. Only a real postive statement from Cell, saying Goku died of a heart virus would help SAID's case

 

[ahill1]

@Victorious

I'm in agreement with you (in that Trunks was the one who killed Freeza in Cell's TL), but you are missing some things. Cell stated that it's weird how Vegeta wasn't killed by the androids when he sees Vegeta flying towards the big chi he sensed:

Chapter: 364 (DBZ 170), P9.4
Cell: “Vegeta?! So he hasn’t been killed by No.17 and No.18 yet…And even he’s got far more power than I predicted…”

Viz omitted him being killed by the androids for some reason.

I was referring to that part, in which Cell says impressed that Vegeta had not yet died.

I'd like to see what Jap anime says. Anyway, just cause he says the Androids were the ones to kill Vegeta...that this somehow means Goku's death in his timeline was a "mystery" to him. It doesnt matter either way. Only a real postive statement from Cell, saying Goku died of a heart virus would help SAID's case.

It's the same thing. The androids are mentioned.