Completed SSB

[Let's Go Fearless!]

No one has given a valid reason why it can't just be FP...

The name says it all, ''Complete'' Super Saiyan Blue which mean its a full power but inaccessible because of the aura.

 

[freezamite]

No one has given a valid reason why it can't just be FP...

Well, if the stamina loss is as big as implied (and it is), even if a non mastered SSJB would want to use 100% of his Ki, the amount of Ki he would lose while powering up would already prevent him from reaching his true 100%.

So even if it technically is a FP SSJB, the fact that a non-mastered SSJB will never reach it already makes it a power up.

 

[Future Warrior]

No one has given a valid reason why it can't just be FP...

Well, if the stamina loss is as big as implied (and it is), even if a non mastered SSJB would want to use 100% of his Ki, the amount of Ki he would lose while powering up would already prevent him from reaching his true 100%.

So even if it technically is a FP SSJB, the fact that a non-mastered SSJB will never reach it already makes it a power up.

Vegeta said FP lasts for a short while though.

 

[freezamite]

No one has given a valid reason why it can't just be FP...

Well, if the stamina loss is as big as implied (and it is), even if a non mastered SSJB would want to use 100% of his Ki, the amount of Ki he would lose while powering up would already prevent him from reaching his true 100%.

So even if it technically is a FP SSJB, the fact that a non-mastered SSJB will never reach it already makes it a power up.

Vegeta said FP lasts for a short while though.

Where did he say that? You mean the untrained SSJB's full power? Seeing this last chapter, I think that the untrained SSJB fought at a 70%-80% of their capacity because anything more would've drained them dry in a matter of seconds.

I haven't read the DBS manga as much as the original so I may have forgotten some details.

 

[Future Warrior]

Well, if the stamina loss is as big as implied (and it is), even if a non mastered SSJB would want to use 100% of his Ki, the amount of Ki he would lose while powering up would already prevent him from reaching his true 100%.

So even if it technically is a FP SSJB, the fact that a non-mastered SSJB will never reach it already makes it a power up.

Vegeta said FP lasts for a short while though.

Where did he say that? You mean the untrained SSJB's full power? Seeing this last chapter, I think that the untrained SSJB fought at a 70%-80% of their capacity because anything more would've drained them dry in a matter of seconds.

I haven't read the DBS manga as much as the original so I may have forgotten some details.

When Goku was fighting Zamasu with CSSB, Vegeta said uncompleted SSB's FP lasts for a short while. How long that ''short while'' is is up to interpretation.

 

[freezamite]

Vegeta said FP lasts for a short while though.

Where did he say that? You mean the untrained SSJB's full power? Seeing this last chapter, I think that the untrained SSJB fought at a 70%-80% of their capacity because anything more would've drained them dry in a matter of seconds.

I haven't read the DBS manga as much as the original so I may have forgotten some details.

When Goku was fighting Zamasu with CSSB, Vegeta said uncompleted SSB's FP lasts for a short while. How long that ''short while'' is is up to interpretation.

Well, I've re-read the chapter and in the (fan) translation he said "for a very short period of time". The thing is, if both Goku and Vegeta were aware of this they probably limited their SSJB power at a 80% so it could last longer, which would explain the power up we see in both Goku and Vegeta when they use the mastered version of the form.

Of course all of this is speculation, but since the manga follows the logic of the original work and since the power up associated to the mastered SSJB has been arguably there since the first time it's been shown, I think that's what Toyotaro has on mind.

 

[Future Warrior]

Where did he say that? You mean the untrained SSJB's full power? Seeing this last chapter, I think that the untrained SSJB fought at a 70%-80% of their capacity because anything more would've drained them dry in a matter of seconds.

I haven't read the DBS manga as much as the original so I may have forgotten some details.

When Goku was fighting Zamasu with CSSB, Vegeta said uncompleted SSB's FP lasts for a short while. How long that ''short while'' is is up to interpretation.

Well, I've re-read the chapter and in the (fan) translation he said "for a very short period of time". The thing is, if both Goku and Vegeta were aware of this they probably limited their SSJB power at a 80% so it could last longer, which would explain the power up we see in both Goku and Vegeta when they use the mastered version of the form.

Of course all of this is speculation, but since the manga follows the logic of the original work and since the power up associated to the mastered SSJB has been arguably there since the first time it's been shown, I think that's what Toyotaro has on mind.

Seems reasonable enough. Do you believe Goku Black Rose suffers the same weakness? FP Rose Black > Merged Zamasu?

 

[freezamite]

When Goku was fighting Zamasu with CSSB, Vegeta said uncompleted SSB's FP lasts for a short while. How long that ''short while'' is is up to interpretation.

Well, I've re-read the chapter and in the (fan) translation he said "for a very short period of time". The thing is, if both Goku and Vegeta were aware of this they probably limited their SSJB power at a 80% so it could last longer, which would explain the power up we see in both Goku and Vegeta when they use the mastered version of the form.

Of course all of this is speculation, but since the manga follows the logic of the original work and since the power up associated to the mastered SSJB has been arguably there since the first time it's been shown, I think that's what Toyotaro has on mind.

Seems reasonable enough. Do you believe Goku Black Rose suffers the same weakness? FP Rose Black > Merged Zamasu?

Yes, absolutely. In fact, its the only explanation as to why Vegeta could defeat him in the 2nd round. The manga is coherent in the fact that both God forms are far beyond the limit of the saiyans, and that their increases in strength are absolutely minimal unless they're related to a further mastering of the God forms.
When Vegeta and Rose started to fight (round 2) Black had been in his Rose form a lot of time abusing Trunks. That's why God Vegeta was able to react against Rose Black and Blue Vegeta overpowered him completely.

 

[Future Warrior]

When Vegeta and Rose started to fight (round 2) Black had been in his Rose form a lot of time abusing Trunks. That's why God Vegeta was able to react against Rose Black and Blue Vegeta overpowered him completely.

I thought it was because Vegeta was using the FP of Blue in bursts, not his suppressed power? You believe that he foresighted Black to abuse Rose and will become weakened when they fight again?

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

It's logical to assume that Black suffered from Rose's drain but that wasn't stated or implied at all.

 

[Papasmurf]

I think Rose might have superior stamina to Blue

 

[Pyro]

It sure as hell looked like Rose didn't have any drain at all.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Whenever a form drains stamina/energy, it will be imply immediately like how the ASSjin, SSjin3, SSjinB which isn't the case with Rose.

 

[Future Warrior]

SSB didn't look like it had drain either... only it's FP does.

 

[freezamite]

I thought it was because Vegeta was using the FP of Blue in bursts, not his suppressed power? You believe that he foresighted Black to abuse Rose and will become weakened when they fight again?

Well, I think its a combination of both. On one hand, Vegeta using the SSJB in short bursts may have allowed him to use a higher percentage of his SSJB power and overpower Black in rose form, but at the same time, Black had to be already tired if SSJGod Vegeta was able to react at his movements and activate SSJB for a few instants.
That's why Vegeta's tactic was useless against Fused Zamasu and he tried to fight as a SSJB the full time, even if it was an uncompleted SSJB, because against fused Zamasu the God form was unable to even react in the slightest.

Regarding Vegeta's tactic, I don't think he foresighted that much. Knowing how Black just discovered the SSJBlue form he surely was aware that Black wouldn't have realised his weakness, but Black abusing SSJRose against Vegeta was a plus.
Remember that Vegeta decides to fight Black alone only after he sees how Black had been using the SSJR, not before.

It's logical to assume that Black suffered from Rose's drain but that wasn't stated or implied at all.

The SSJRose is the equivalent of the SSJBlue, which means that unless something is said to work differently we have to assume it's the same.
If the SSJRose didn't have the stamina problems, it would've been said or stated somewhere.

Whenever a form drains stamina/energy, it will be imply immediately like how the ASSjin, SSjin3, SSjinB which isn't the case with Rose.

But SSJRose is not a new form. It's a variation of the SSJBlue, so unless the opposite was stated, it had to have the same drawbacks of the SSJBlue.
Furthermore, look at Rose's aura, and you'll see how it's identical to the untrained SSJBlue aura, which reinforces the idea of him losing stamina.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Whenever a form drains stamina/energy, it will be imply immediately like how the ASSjin, SSjin3, SSjinB which isn't the case with Rose.

But SSJRose is not a new form. It's a variation of the SSJBlue, so unless the opposite was stated, it had to have the same drawbacks of the SSJBlue.
Furthermore, look at Rose's aura, and you'll see how it's identical to the untrained SSJBlue aura, which reinforces the idea of him losing stamina.

Then again, that's very logical but the author will always state/imply if something is wrong like how Merged Zamasu cannot defuse and he should be defuse just like Vegito and the author explained why. So similarly, since Blue drains a lot of stamina therefore Rose should suffer the same fate but it wasn't said or implied that it did which mean Rose doesn't suffer the same fate like Blue. Sorry, but Toriyama/Toyotaro will always state/imply whenever a form has a drawback.

 

[freezamite]

Whenever a form drains stamina/energy, it will be imply immediately like how the ASSjin, SSjin3, SSjinB which isn't the case with Rose.

But SSJRose is not a new form. It's a variation of the SSJBlue, so unless the opposite was stated, it had to have the same drawbacks of the SSJBlue.
Furthermore, look at Rose's aura, and you'll see how it's identical to the untrained SSJBlue aura, which reinforces the idea of him losing stamina.

Then again, that's very logical but the author will always state/imply if something is wrong like how Merged Zamasu cannot defuse and he should be defuse just like Vegito and the author explained why. So similarly, since Blue drains a lot of stamina therefore Rose should suffer the same fate but it wasn't said or implied that it did which mean Rose doesn't suffer the same fate like Blue. Sorry, but Toriyama/Toyotaro will always state/imply whenever a form has a drawback.

It's different. Zamasu not defusing was the particularity there, that's why it had to be explained, in the same way Black's rose hair was also given an explanation, because it was different than "the rule" (in this case, what was previously described).
Rose was portrayed as the equivalent form of Blue, and every difference it had with Blue was explained. If Rose had been special regarding the stamina problems, it would've been stated as well. But it wasn't.

Look, when you try to describe something, you have to point its particularities and waste the minimum amount of time stating the obvious things.
If I for example am trying to describe my friend Peter, and I start saying "he's a boy, he has a head, 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth" I'm a bad writer, because everyone assumes Peter has those without me saying anything.
It's only if he had only 1 eye that I should include it in my description, because having one eye is different than the rule, it's a particularity of Peter that I have to point.

Now apply the same to Rose. Besides the feats showing he clearly suffered from the loss of stamina (his Rose form was much, much above Vegeta's Blue form in his last fight, and went to a level between Vegeta's SSJB and SSJG), his form was described as the SSJB equivalent. You don't have to state again what has been already stated, we all know how that form works and it's clearly reflected in the fight, so it's not necessary to explain it again.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But SSJRose is not a new form. It's a variation of the SSJBlue, so unless the opposite was stated, it had to have the same drawbacks of the SSJBlue.
Furthermore, look at Rose's aura, and you'll see how it's identical to the untrained SSJBlue aura, which reinforces the idea of him losing stamina.

Then again, that's very logical but the author will always state/imply if something is wrong like how Merged Zamasu cannot defuse and he should be defuse just like Vegito and the author explained why. So similarly, since Blue drains a lot of stamina therefore Rose should suffer the same fate but it wasn't said or implied that it did which mean Rose doesn't suffer the same fate like Blue. Sorry, but Toriyama/Toyotaro will always state/imply whenever a form has a drawback.

It's different. Zamasu not defusing was the particularity there, that's why it had to be explained, in the same way Black's rose hair was also given an explanation, because it was different than "the rule" (in this case, what was previously described).
Rose was portrayed as the equivalent form of Blue, and every difference it had with Blue was explained. If Rose had been special regarding the stamina problems, it would've been stated as well. But it wasn't.

Look, when you try to describe something, you have to point its particularities and waste the minimum amount of time stating the obvious things.
If I for example am trying to describe my friend Peter, and I start saying "he's a boy, he has a head, 2 eyes, a nose and a mouth" I'm a bad writer, because everyone assumes Peter has those without me saying anything.
It's only if he had only 1 eye that I should include it in my description, because having one eye is different than the rule, it's a particularity of Peter that I have to point.

Now apply the same to Rose. Besides the feats showing he clearly suffered from the loss of stamina (his Rose form was much, much above Vegeta's Blue form in his last fight, and went to a level between Vegeta's SSJB and SSJG), his form was described as the SSJB equivalent. You don't have to state again what has been already stated, we all know how that form works and it's clearly reflected in the fight, so it's not necessary to explain it again.

Then again, I didn't disagree with you but agreed that Rose should suffer the same fate like Blue but it wasn't implied to be that case. Black was doing himself fine against Vegeta and sure he was losing but it wasn't because of the Rose but its just Vegeta's new strategy > him.

Black didn't have a stamina drain something like that, otherwise he should be able to tell that he should be much stronger than he actually was which isn't the case.

 

[freezamite]

Then again, I didn't disagree with you but agreed that Rose should suffer the same fate like Blue but it wasn't implied to be that case. Black was doing himself fine against Vegeta and sure he was losing but it wasn't because of the Rose but its just Vegeta's new strategy > him.

But Vegeta's new strategy precisely revolved around the Blue weakness, and without that weakness it wouldn't have worked at all. Remember that SSJR Black was clearly stronger than SSJB Vegeta, so the sole fact that the strategy worked already proves that SSJR is the same than SSJB in that regard.

Black didn't have a stamina drain something like that, otherwise he should be able to tell that he should be much stronger than he actually was which isn't the case.

That's a common mistake a lot of people do when speaking of DB. In DB characters doesn't realise how weak they are until the results are apparent at a simple glance.
We have multiple examples of that:
Raditz
Vegeta in the earth miscalculating an attack because he was more weakened than he thought.
Freezer not realising his power was decreasing (x2, first in Namek when he was at his 100%, then in the earth in FnF in Toriyama's script).
Mecha Freezer in the earth...

They only realised how weak they had become until someone told them or they realised it through feats they should've been able to do but couldn't.

So Black could only possibly realise his stamina problem while fighting against Vegeta, at which point it didn't change nothing because he was more worried about why God Vegeta was that strong. And even after realising it, he doesn't know that the regular saiyans (Goku or Vegeta) can't increase their strength by training or zenkais like he does, so he probably assumed that Blue Vegeta was much stronger now than before.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

But Vegeta's new strategy precisely revolved around the Blue weakness, and without that weakness it wouldn't have worked at all. Remember that SSJR Black was clearly stronger than SSJB Vegeta, so the sole fact that the strategy worked already proves that SSJR is the same than SSJB in that regard.

I don't what we're disagreeing with this.

That's a common mistake a lot of people do when speaking of DB. In DB characters doesn't realise how weak they are until the results are apparent at a simple glance.
We have multiple examples of that:
Raditz
Vegeta in the earth miscalculating an attack because he was more weakened than he thought.
Freezer not realising his power was decreasing (x2, first in Namek when he was at his 100%, then in the earth in FnF in Toriyama's script).
Mecha Freezer in the earth...

They only realised how weak they had become until someone told them or they realised it through feats they should've been able to do but couldn't.

So Black could only possibly realise his stamina problem while fighting against Vegeta, at which point it didn't change nothing because he was more worried about why God Vegeta was that strong. And even after realising it, he doesn't know that the regular saiyans (Goku or Vegeta) can't increase their strength by training or zenkais like he does, so he probably assumed that Blue Vegeta was much stronger now than before.

Your examples proved my point. They were implied and stated unlike your assumption here buddy.

Black SHOULD realize Rose stamina problem but he didn't because the form didn't suffer the same weakness that Blue did otherwise, Vegeta would mock him for that like how the Androids miscalculated the Saiyans and Vegeta mocked them for that, same thing he did against Dodoria and Zarbon, and same thing he did against Black earlier about Goku's body. But in this case, nothing was ever implied that Rose has a weakness like Blue has which is inconsistency in Toriyama/Toyotaro's part as they should explain more about the Rose form.