DBS: Manga vs Anime
- Thread starter GSM123
- Start date
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 27,967
The Future Trunks Arc has the distinction amongst Super arcs for being the only one with genuine repercussions through focusing on Trunks' timeline, one where things can't be restored and is ultimately brought to ruin. For this alone, it has more worth in its existence than the absolute nothing that was its predecessor. For what it's worth, the arc also has a greater sense of identity than the other arcs for a similar reason as its spiritual predecessor - the Cell Arc (and not just because Future Trunks returned); as it returned to the sense of mystery contained within that arc rather than being yet another overly simplistic case of "beat up bad guy/rival".
Unfortunately, that's where the positives contained in both versions end, however, as every other aspect of the arc falls flat and what positives it had eventually crash and burn. Firstly, let's go over the states that led to the arc's main conflict. Shin and Beerus being revealed to share a life link retroactively breaks the Boo Arc as there would be no reason for Beerus to go to sleep when Shin was known to be hunting down a dangerous wizard who could potentially be capable of killing him through Boo's power or his own sorcery, meaning there's no reason Beerus shouldn't have just Hakai'd Boo eons ago. Next, we have the time travel and the many paradoxes it causes. What rules had been established on how time travel worked in DB, however thin those in the Cell Arc may have been, were just thrown out the window as both Zamasus can freely go between time periods and timelines without creating huge shifts when Trunks so much as fulfilling Galu's job against Freeza was enough to change history in a huge way. Moreover, Goku Black not being able to access the full power of Goku's body yet still being able to bring his base form to a level beyond that of Goku's SSJ state really doesn't make much sense, nor does nobody in the timeline of the body-swapped Goku not taking action once his Ki disappeared.
Now, let's talk about the characters themselves. The most obvious starting point would be Zamasu/Goku Black. Though the mystery surrounding them was okay, the revelation that Zamasu just did a more elaborate version of what Ginyu did ruins it. Zamasu's turn was also far underdeveloped in either version, with his manga self just being brought over the edge by one mortal civilisation and viewing a GodTube video whilst his anime self was only driven to obsessing over Galu by Gowasu having the cognitive dissonance to think showing not all mortals are violent by having a battle hungry mortal fight and humiliate him
. It also doesn't help that, for such supposed masterminds, they're portrayed as woefully incompetent. With more time rings being made when new timelines are formed and being told time travel is forbidden by the Gods (implying there's at least some level of monitoring it), there's no way Zamasu's plan should have gone as far as it did without the Daishinkan or Zen-Oh catching wind of it when killing off Kaioshin in multiple universes and timelines isn't exactly subtle. This is further damaged by how incompetent they are in letting the Saiyans escape, particularly in the anime where he lets them escape twice and neither of the duo is capable of killing the last few mortals on Earth in the meantime.
The next two to discuss are Trunks and Mai. Both versions of Mai are nothing but waifu bait and she serves nothing but being a love interest for Trunks, leaving little to discuss. Her embarrassed side is a nice touch, though it doesn't really shed further light on her character when she was always easily embarrassed by certain topics.
Trunks is very much the central character of the arc, which makes his treatment within it an utter disappointment. It's here where I can't avoid comparing the anime and manga differences due to how integral they are for Trunks. The anime did a better job at capturing his character in the early segments of the arc. Like with the Cell Arc in which he was caught aback by how the actual figures he'd heard of differed in person from the tales he'd heard, here he's surprised by the changes amongst those he knew compared to what they became in a darker timeline such as Gohan's scholary life, #18 being a housewife and his present self growing up well. Despite this strong start, however, his treatment for the rest of the anime is poorly done when he needed asspull power ups to maintain relevance without any real build up such as his exclusive Super Saiyan Rage form. It's not as though being a hybrid could be used as an excuse when Gohan never received such a form and his sudden power ups always had build up beforehand (and the ToP Arc would damage this point even more with how training gains from about a day were enough to keep him relevant). Of course, the biggest problem is his Genki Sword at the end making no sense. Not only had Trunks never received training on how to grasp the fundamentals of the Genki Dama, but being able to destroy Zamasu's body from the Genki of at most a dozen people whereas the Genki of billions of Earthlings wasn't enough to destroy Boo without Goku gaining full control of it is a clear plot hole and makes Trunks come off as being close to a Gary Stu (his failure in protecting the future being the only thing stopping him from fully being one). His manga self has the opposite problem. Though the powerscaling is kept consistent, his static power leads to him being relegated to a support role instantly in what was his story. There are some positives such as his healing ability which, whilst fairly contrived in him just picking it up from training under Kibito without knowing, does at least make Mai's survival logical instead of making Black the most incompetent main villain ever in the anime. Considering how Gohan would be treat in the ToP, however, there is no excuse for this Trunks not being granted a power up when the opportunity to train with Vegeta was there. Both are executed in a heavily flawed manner, though I'd go with the manga version of Trunks being marginally better due to not sprouting as many plot holes as his anime self.
I guess it's also worth bringing up Goku and Vegeta. Both versions of Goku are handled extremely poorly as per usual with him not using the Zen-Oh button once it became apparent retreat was inevitable, despite the fact he's sacrificed such senses of pride when a more logical route appeared than fighting purely by his own merits (using the kettle against Murasaki, resorting to biting with Freeza and Boo, using Roshi's glasses against Tenshinhan's Taiyoken, the Genki Dama in general, etc.). The only positive addition was seeing his rage at Zamasu's revelation about Chichi and Goten, but this came with the downside of a dumb rage boost as we'll discuss shortly. Vegeta was more of a mixed bag, his anime self having some good fatherly scenes with Trunks but had the issue of his regression back to the "I will surpass Kakarrot" mindset remaining intact, whereas his manga self presented good battle intellect which was later made irrelevant by his reliance on a rage boost, though there was a decent scene of him foregoing his pride by realising it was better to heal Goku. Both versions of Goku were equally bad, though the anime version at least offered something. As for Vegeta, I'd probably say the manga did a better job by a minimal amount as his regression wasn't that pronounced here.
Now, it's time to talk about the differences in the main conflict in both versions. The anime was at a disadvantage by default from Black letting the group escape twice, but the powerscaling and asspulls behind it make things even worse for the anime. First, we'll compare Vegeta VS Black. Somehow, Black manages to elevate his base form up to SSB tier just from having fought SS2 Galu. Then in the rematch, Vegeta stomps Black just because he trained once in the Rosat despite Goku saying he and Vegeta had reached the peak of what it could provide them in the previous arc and the fight is only extended through Black utilising weird dimensional techniques that aren't given any explanation such as his clones. Now, it's not as if the manga version is much better when it has things such as SS2 Vegeta now being naturally above SS3 Goku with little reasoning beyond his BoG rage boost to account for it or scaling becoming questionable in the rematch depending how you interpret SSJ Black faring well against SSB Vegeta, but it at least provided a reasoning for Vegeta's dominance in the rematch that didn't contradict what had been previously established. Black being able to still achieve Zenkais is almost as bad in the manga though, with it making no sense how he should gain them from Goku's body when Goku and Vegeta can't despite Zenkais being a biological trait.
Zamasu's role in the fight prior to fusion was done somewhat better in the manga. He utilised more Kaioshin-centric techniques that helped highlight the usefulness of their skills and Goku played things slightly smarter by not just rushing at him with blue unlike in the anime. I would include Anime Galu getting an asspulled rage boost as a distinct problem of the anime, but it's not as though Vegeta hadn't in BoG already. Still a plot hole from what Z established, but not a major one by Super standards.
When Zamasu fuses is when more distinct problems arise for both versions. Firstly, you have the pointlessness of his new techniques in the anime with how his halo mode didn't provide anything new but a power buff and Goku somehow manages to resolve boost himself into temporarily overpowering him (and becoming 10x stronger as we'd discover in the next arc). We then get Vegetto. I'd say the soft retcon of the Potaras was one of the few aspects of the arc that was fine, considering a logical explanation was given as to Rou Dai Kaioshin's miscalculation, even if I prefer the idea of Boo's magical being undoing it. The main issue that arises from this is how Potara should be seen as a first resort against anyone Goku and Vegeta can't handle alone after this, though that's an issue for the Broly movie more than anything. As for Vegetto VS Zamasu, the anime was more of a spectacle superficially, but the manga was overall better in portraying the sheer power of Vegetto with how he utterly dominated Zamasu and may not have even needed to transform after the Senzu, as well as showing how severely the time limit is reduced by SSB.
I've already gone over the Trunks asspull in the anime after this, so it's time to switch to talking purely about the manga. The most obvious thing to mention is Goku perfecting Super Saiyan Blue, which has a lot of problems. Vegeta discovering Goku was on the verge of doing so from being fused with him yet not learning himself was an issue, As was how forced giving Goku the spotlight was here. There's also how it seems counter-intuitive for a form meant to perfect the stamina draining SSB to not be long-lasting, but that can at least be chalked up to it being Goku's first time experimenting with it. Goku concentrating his Ki internally is a decent callback to the points about Ki control taught by Popo and Kaio, though how Goku didn't utilise them earlier provides further problems with this form and makes a certain part of the next arc even worse as a result. Still, despite the contrived nature of PSSB, it's still nowhere near as damaging as Trunks becoming generic Shonen Hero and creating multiple plot holes with a single attack. Vegeta's rage boost in the manga is almost as bad though.
Before we have Zen-Oh become a literal deus ex machina, the climax of the fights warrant comparison. The anime has Zamasu become a non-coporeal being as he attempts to merge with space-time whereas his manga self starts producing unlimited clones. I'd say the manga route is marginally more tolerable due to it making zero sense that destroying Zamasu's body would allow him to become infinitely more powerful. What's worse though is how it definitely seems the results should have been reversed, seeing as Anime Black already had the clone technique and Manga Fused Zamasu presented some spatial manipulation akin to Janemba.
Also, the Zen-Oh result goes against a major theme of the arc as one in which the characters were meant to not rely on the Gods had them doing just that to solve their problem. There can be some irony to be found in both arcs featuring Future Trunks going against their main theme (future is hell without Goku, yet Goku remains dead by the end after believing it to be better), but at least the Cell Arc tried to present some logic in Goku's decision and made it clear through the progress of its characters (Gohan, mainly) why it wasn't a wasted effort. Its Super successor doesn't even have that with Trunks' complete failure and no lesson being learnt as a whole.
The aftermath of both arcs is Trunks and Mai going to an identical timeline to their own to live. This could be seen as holding some significance with how Trunks still failed to protect the future and it won't technically be his reality, but all that is quickly undermined by the happy tone of the anime and how quickly Trunks himself adjusts to the idea in the manga. Also, Trunks being given such a convenient alternative at all lessens the impact of his loss and failure despite the premise of the arc being one that seemed unafraid of having permanent consequences and a dark tone. I'd say the ending is one area that the anime definitely did better though due to Trunks' characterisation as well as his moment with Gohan.
Overall, the Future Trunks Arc was one of the few in Super that had the genuine potential to be decent, yet multiple plot holes from powerscaling, time paradoxes and illogical characters as well as thematic inconsistency easily made it worse than the first two. Comparing them, the anime had better character moments in its early portion and a more resonable epilogue, but the problems caused within the main moments of conflict of the arc being far greater would lead to me saying the manga version was slightly better, though still in the same tier of bad.
1/10 for both versions.
Unfortunately, that's where the positives contained in both versions end, however, as every other aspect of the arc falls flat and what positives it had eventually crash and burn. Firstly, let's go over the states that led to the arc's main conflict. Shin and Beerus being revealed to share a life link retroactively breaks the Boo Arc as there would be no reason for Beerus to go to sleep when Shin was known to be hunting down a dangerous wizard who could potentially be capable of killing him through Boo's power or his own sorcery, meaning there's no reason Beerus shouldn't have just Hakai'd Boo eons ago. Next, we have the time travel and the many paradoxes it causes. What rules had been established on how time travel worked in DB, however thin those in the Cell Arc may have been, were just thrown out the window as both Zamasus can freely go between time periods and timelines without creating huge shifts when Trunks so much as fulfilling Galu's job against Freeza was enough to change history in a huge way. Moreover, Goku Black not being able to access the full power of Goku's body yet still being able to bring his base form to a level beyond that of Goku's SSJ state really doesn't make much sense, nor does nobody in the timeline of the body-swapped Goku not taking action once his Ki disappeared.
Now, let's talk about the characters themselves. The most obvious starting point would be Zamasu/Goku Black. Though the mystery surrounding them was okay, the revelation that Zamasu just did a more elaborate version of what Ginyu did ruins it. Zamasu's turn was also far underdeveloped in either version, with his manga self just being brought over the edge by one mortal civilisation and viewing a GodTube video whilst his anime self was only driven to obsessing over Galu by Gowasu having the cognitive dissonance to think showing not all mortals are violent by having a battle hungry mortal fight and humiliate him
. It also doesn't help that, for such supposed masterminds, they're portrayed as woefully incompetent. With more time rings being made when new timelines are formed and being told time travel is forbidden by the Gods (implying there's at least some level of monitoring it), there's no way Zamasu's plan should have gone as far as it did without the Daishinkan or Zen-Oh catching wind of it when killing off Kaioshin in multiple universes and timelines isn't exactly subtle. This is further damaged by how incompetent they are in letting the Saiyans escape, particularly in the anime where he lets them escape twice and neither of the duo is capable of killing the last few mortals on Earth in the meantime. The next two to discuss are Trunks and Mai. Both versions of Mai are nothing but waifu bait and she serves nothing but being a love interest for Trunks, leaving little to discuss. Her embarrassed side is a nice touch, though it doesn't really shed further light on her character when she was always easily embarrassed by certain topics.
Trunks is very much the central character of the arc, which makes his treatment within it an utter disappointment. It's here where I can't avoid comparing the anime and manga differences due to how integral they are for Trunks. The anime did a better job at capturing his character in the early segments of the arc. Like with the Cell Arc in which he was caught aback by how the actual figures he'd heard of differed in person from the tales he'd heard, here he's surprised by the changes amongst those he knew compared to what they became in a darker timeline such as Gohan's scholary life, #18 being a housewife and his present self growing up well. Despite this strong start, however, his treatment for the rest of the anime is poorly done when he needed asspull power ups to maintain relevance without any real build up such as his exclusive Super Saiyan Rage form. It's not as though being a hybrid could be used as an excuse when Gohan never received such a form and his sudden power ups always had build up beforehand (and the ToP Arc would damage this point even more with how training gains from about a day were enough to keep him relevant). Of course, the biggest problem is his Genki Sword at the end making no sense. Not only had Trunks never received training on how to grasp the fundamentals of the Genki Dama, but being able to destroy Zamasu's body from the Genki of at most a dozen people whereas the Genki of billions of Earthlings wasn't enough to destroy Boo without Goku gaining full control of it is a clear plot hole and makes Trunks come off as being close to a Gary Stu (his failure in protecting the future being the only thing stopping him from fully being one). His manga self has the opposite problem. Though the powerscaling is kept consistent, his static power leads to him being relegated to a support role instantly in what was his story. There are some positives such as his healing ability which, whilst fairly contrived in him just picking it up from training under Kibito without knowing, does at least make Mai's survival logical instead of making Black the most incompetent main villain ever in the anime. Considering how Gohan would be treat in the ToP, however, there is no excuse for this Trunks not being granted a power up when the opportunity to train with Vegeta was there. Both are executed in a heavily flawed manner, though I'd go with the manga version of Trunks being marginally better due to not sprouting as many plot holes as his anime self.
I guess it's also worth bringing up Goku and Vegeta. Both versions of Goku are handled extremely poorly as per usual with him not using the Zen-Oh button once it became apparent retreat was inevitable, despite the fact he's sacrificed such senses of pride when a more logical route appeared than fighting purely by his own merits (using the kettle against Murasaki, resorting to biting with Freeza and Boo, using Roshi's glasses against Tenshinhan's Taiyoken, the Genki Dama in general, etc.). The only positive addition was seeing his rage at Zamasu's revelation about Chichi and Goten, but this came with the downside of a dumb rage boost as we'll discuss shortly. Vegeta was more of a mixed bag, his anime self having some good fatherly scenes with Trunks but had the issue of his regression back to the "I will surpass Kakarrot" mindset remaining intact, whereas his manga self presented good battle intellect which was later made irrelevant by his reliance on a rage boost, though there was a decent scene of him foregoing his pride by realising it was better to heal Goku. Both versions of Goku were equally bad, though the anime version at least offered something. As for Vegeta, I'd probably say the manga did a better job by a minimal amount as his regression wasn't that pronounced here.
Now, it's time to talk about the differences in the main conflict in both versions. The anime was at a disadvantage by default from Black letting the group escape twice, but the powerscaling and asspulls behind it make things even worse for the anime. First, we'll compare Vegeta VS Black. Somehow, Black manages to elevate his base form up to SSB tier just from having fought SS2 Galu. Then in the rematch, Vegeta stomps Black just because he trained once in the Rosat despite Goku saying he and Vegeta had reached the peak of what it could provide them in the previous arc and the fight is only extended through Black utilising weird dimensional techniques that aren't given any explanation such as his clones. Now, it's not as if the manga version is much better when it has things such as SS2 Vegeta now being naturally above SS3 Goku with little reasoning beyond his BoG rage boost to account for it or scaling becoming questionable in the rematch depending how you interpret SSJ Black faring well against SSB Vegeta, but it at least provided a reasoning for Vegeta's dominance in the rematch that didn't contradict what had been previously established. Black being able to still achieve Zenkais is almost as bad in the manga though, with it making no sense how he should gain them from Goku's body when Goku and Vegeta can't despite Zenkais being a biological trait.
Zamasu's role in the fight prior to fusion was done somewhat better in the manga. He utilised more Kaioshin-centric techniques that helped highlight the usefulness of their skills and Goku played things slightly smarter by not just rushing at him with blue unlike in the anime. I would include Anime Galu getting an asspulled rage boost as a distinct problem of the anime, but it's not as though Vegeta hadn't in BoG already. Still a plot hole from what Z established, but not a major one by Super standards.
When Zamasu fuses is when more distinct problems arise for both versions. Firstly, you have the pointlessness of his new techniques in the anime with how his halo mode didn't provide anything new but a power buff and Goku somehow manages to resolve boost himself into temporarily overpowering him (and becoming 10x stronger as we'd discover in the next arc). We then get Vegetto. I'd say the soft retcon of the Potaras was one of the few aspects of the arc that was fine, considering a logical explanation was given as to Rou Dai Kaioshin's miscalculation, even if I prefer the idea of Boo's magical being undoing it. The main issue that arises from this is how Potara should be seen as a first resort against anyone Goku and Vegeta can't handle alone after this, though that's an issue for the Broly movie more than anything. As for Vegetto VS Zamasu, the anime was more of a spectacle superficially, but the manga was overall better in portraying the sheer power of Vegetto with how he utterly dominated Zamasu and may not have even needed to transform after the Senzu, as well as showing how severely the time limit is reduced by SSB.
I've already gone over the Trunks asspull in the anime after this, so it's time to switch to talking purely about the manga. The most obvious thing to mention is Goku perfecting Super Saiyan Blue, which has a lot of problems. Vegeta discovering Goku was on the verge of doing so from being fused with him yet not learning himself was an issue, As was how forced giving Goku the spotlight was here. There's also how it seems counter-intuitive for a form meant to perfect the stamina draining SSB to not be long-lasting, but that can at least be chalked up to it being Goku's first time experimenting with it. Goku concentrating his Ki internally is a decent callback to the points about Ki control taught by Popo and Kaio, though how Goku didn't utilise them earlier provides further problems with this form and makes a certain part of the next arc even worse as a result. Still, despite the contrived nature of PSSB, it's still nowhere near as damaging as Trunks becoming generic Shonen Hero and creating multiple plot holes with a single attack. Vegeta's rage boost in the manga is almost as bad though.
Before we have Zen-Oh become a literal deus ex machina, the climax of the fights warrant comparison. The anime has Zamasu become a non-coporeal being as he attempts to merge with space-time whereas his manga self starts producing unlimited clones. I'd say the manga route is marginally more tolerable due to it making zero sense that destroying Zamasu's body would allow him to become infinitely more powerful. What's worse though is how it definitely seems the results should have been reversed, seeing as Anime Black already had the clone technique and Manga Fused Zamasu presented some spatial manipulation akin to Janemba.
Also, the Zen-Oh result goes against a major theme of the arc as one in which the characters were meant to not rely on the Gods had them doing just that to solve their problem. There can be some irony to be found in both arcs featuring Future Trunks going against their main theme (future is hell without Goku, yet Goku remains dead by the end after believing it to be better), but at least the Cell Arc tried to present some logic in Goku's decision and made it clear through the progress of its characters (Gohan, mainly) why it wasn't a wasted effort. Its Super successor doesn't even have that with Trunks' complete failure and no lesson being learnt as a whole.
The aftermath of both arcs is Trunks and Mai going to an identical timeline to their own to live. This could be seen as holding some significance with how Trunks still failed to protect the future and it won't technically be his reality, but all that is quickly undermined by the happy tone of the anime and how quickly Trunks himself adjusts to the idea in the manga. Also, Trunks being given such a convenient alternative at all lessens the impact of his loss and failure despite the premise of the arc being one that seemed unafraid of having permanent consequences and a dark tone. I'd say the ending is one area that the anime definitely did better though due to Trunks' characterisation as well as his moment with Gohan.
Overall, the Future Trunks Arc was one of the few in Super that had the genuine potential to be decent, yet multiple plot holes from powerscaling, time paradoxes and illogical characters as well as thematic inconsistency easily made it worse than the first two. Comparing them, the anime had better character moments in its early portion and a more resonable epilogue, but the problems caused within the main moments of conflict of the arc being far greater would lead to me saying the manga version was slightly better, though still in the same tier of bad.
1/10 for both versions.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2017
- Messages
- 15,416
- Age
- 22
So this is when things started to get real. Actual stakes and consequences, and a genuinely interesting villain; the first in years.
Unfortunately, the setting of the arc sucks. We have the entirety of 11 new universes and a main villain that is from one of them, but we spend most of our time in the wastelands of Trunks' world. Bringing Trunks back isn't a very smart idea when it brings the question of how he's been handling all the post Android enemies. The manga at least bothered to give us his backstory on the Boo Arc, but Trunks is still hopelessly outclassed on the power scaling regardless. This leads to Trunks being a even more pointless character than he was in the Cell Arc most of the time, and the anime tries to salvage this by introducing... What's the name of that form again? How and why did he attain it? I can't remember man, all I can remember are theories from the blue dots on his aura. And the manga barely saves face anyway when Trunks started the Arc sparring with Post God Goku (Though his awe to Goku vs Trunks does implies Goku held back on him) and goes to the future trading blows with Rosé Goku Black and Immortal Zamasu. What?
Since I'm talking about power scaling, it's hard to tell which version was worse. Goku Black introduced the awful concept on Super that characters get strong as they keep fighting, what's simply BAFFLING. How does this even work? Why did he go to Blue tier in base after fighting a SSJ2? And why is his Rosé form blue tier? Hit's version was at least rational by limiting the improvements to his time skip and only when he was cornered, when Black's adaptation is flat out a shitshow, and the writers have to pull of equally absurd power ups (Goku's rage, Trunks' new form) to keep up. The manga does take a more consertative approach than the anime and I even particulary like the idea of Black exploiting Zenkais when Goku and Vegeta can't anymore, but SSJ2 Vegeta beating on Black sucked ass. Come on Toyotaro, at least have Goku or Trunks say Vegeta is using Trunks' SSJ2 hax technique or something. Also, it's hard to tell whether Goku had PSSJB all along and was hiding it for some reason or if he unlocked a form that needs a lot of soul searching just from defusing away from Vegetto.
Now on the plot and characters. Goku Black was a very interesting character, the first time we see a evil Goku in canon and second time in the whole series. Even the fact he was the product of a body swap didn't take away from the character, rather it was a surprising twist that hardly anyone expected. Or it could have been, if the new character they just introduced were so obviously mustache twirling. What the fuck is wrong with Gowasu to hire this guy? How was he a Kaio before if he's so evil? How did he end up in Trunks' timeline with his time travel? Why is Goku still alive then? Is Zamasu just a living paradox? To be fair I vaguely remember something about removing his time ring erasing his existence, but I'm not sure.
Goku's rivalry with Zamasu over who truly deserved his powers, besides dealing with the man who stole his identity, could've been a very interesting thing. But that was only hinted at in the anime (When Zamasu explains how he killed Chi-Chi and Goten), and literally non-existent in the manga. Zamasu was really quickly reduced to a mustache twirling dumbass whose entire plan started falling apart as soon as Trunks got help from daddy and the guy he already killed before,
I honestly liked the concept of Merged Zamasu. In the manga, which explored the dynamics of the fusion, that is. We get to see what happens when a immortal fuses with a mortal, and one of the few interesting things on the Potara retcon when Merged Zamasu defused, but barely didn't. The manga had the perfect chance to end the saga right here with Trunks stabbing Black, but then we got some stupidity that I refuse to acknowledge as canon. Why did they have to bring an army of Merged Zamasus? And how? Did they really need Zeno here when it was made clear in the beginning the gang couldn't rely on any gods this time? Toyotaro really had a problem ending this Arc... |I mean so did the anime with the Infinite Zamasu stuff, but at least they didn't shoehorn PSSJB Goku and Enraged Vegeta as potential Zamasu killers there.
On the anime side specifically, Merged Zamasu sucked. He kept getting his ass kicked by Goku even before the Kaio-Ken was brought up, and required a literal Deus Ex Machina to power himself up. Then he goes toe to toe with Vegetto, which goes to show how backwards the scale here is. The manga has Goku and Vegeta go from stomped to stomping thanks to Potara (Which was a fan-service uncalled for that even retconned a key point in the series! If you really needed temporary fusion, just do the dance ffs), while Anime MZ went from being stomped by Goku to... Going toe to toe with Goku+Vegeta? What?
Finally, the anime has some filler scenes that gives us more times with the characters as usual. Broke scaling or not it was definitely cool to see Mai sniping Goku Black while he had tea with Zamasu, and like in the Cell Saga Trunks got to once again see how different from the expected his heroes are. Trunks meeting #18 and finding out she's actually Kuririn's waifu nowadays was probably the best scene in the saga, and that's saying something.
Honestly, I'm giving the anime a higher 1.5/10 for the depth with most exclusive scenes, even if the scaling was far more wonky. Manga gets a 1/10 from me.
Unfortunately, the setting of the arc sucks. We have the entirety of 11 new universes and a main villain that is from one of them, but we spend most of our time in the wastelands of Trunks' world. Bringing Trunks back isn't a very smart idea when it brings the question of how he's been handling all the post Android enemies. The manga at least bothered to give us his backstory on the Boo Arc, but Trunks is still hopelessly outclassed on the power scaling regardless. This leads to Trunks being a even more pointless character than he was in the Cell Arc most of the time, and the anime tries to salvage this by introducing... What's the name of that form again? How and why did he attain it? I can't remember man, all I can remember are theories from the blue dots on his aura. And the manga barely saves face anyway when Trunks started the Arc sparring with Post God Goku (Though his awe to Goku vs Trunks does implies Goku held back on him) and goes to the future trading blows with Rosé Goku Black and Immortal Zamasu. What?
Since I'm talking about power scaling, it's hard to tell which version was worse. Goku Black introduced the awful concept on Super that characters get strong as they keep fighting, what's simply BAFFLING. How does this even work? Why did he go to Blue tier in base after fighting a SSJ2? And why is his Rosé form blue tier? Hit's version was at least rational by limiting the improvements to his time skip and only when he was cornered, when Black's adaptation is flat out a shitshow, and the writers have to pull of equally absurd power ups (Goku's rage, Trunks' new form) to keep up. The manga does take a more consertative approach than the anime and I even particulary like the idea of Black exploiting Zenkais when Goku and Vegeta can't anymore, but SSJ2 Vegeta beating on Black sucked ass. Come on Toyotaro, at least have Goku or Trunks say Vegeta is using Trunks' SSJ2 hax technique or something. Also, it's hard to tell whether Goku had PSSJB all along and was hiding it for some reason or if he unlocked a form that needs a lot of soul searching just from defusing away from Vegetto.
Now on the plot and characters. Goku Black was a very interesting character, the first time we see a evil Goku in canon and second time in the whole series. Even the fact he was the product of a body swap didn't take away from the character, rather it was a surprising twist that hardly anyone expected. Or it could have been, if the new character they just introduced were so obviously mustache twirling. What the fuck is wrong with Gowasu to hire this guy? How was he a Kaio before if he's so evil? How did he end up in Trunks' timeline with his time travel? Why is Goku still alive then? Is Zamasu just a living paradox? To be fair I vaguely remember something about removing his time ring erasing his existence, but I'm not sure.
Goku's rivalry with Zamasu over who truly deserved his powers, besides dealing with the man who stole his identity, could've been a very interesting thing. But that was only hinted at in the anime (When Zamasu explains how he killed Chi-Chi and Goten), and literally non-existent in the manga. Zamasu was really quickly reduced to a mustache twirling dumbass whose entire plan started falling apart as soon as Trunks got help from daddy and the guy he already killed before,
I honestly liked the concept of Merged Zamasu. In the manga, which explored the dynamics of the fusion, that is. We get to see what happens when a immortal fuses with a mortal, and one of the few interesting things on the Potara retcon when Merged Zamasu defused, but barely didn't. The manga had the perfect chance to end the saga right here with Trunks stabbing Black, but then we got some stupidity that I refuse to acknowledge as canon. Why did they have to bring an army of Merged Zamasus? And how? Did they really need Zeno here when it was made clear in the beginning the gang couldn't rely on any gods this time? Toyotaro really had a problem ending this Arc... |I mean so did the anime with the Infinite Zamasu stuff, but at least they didn't shoehorn PSSJB Goku and Enraged Vegeta as potential Zamasu killers there.
On the anime side specifically, Merged Zamasu sucked. He kept getting his ass kicked by Goku even before the Kaio-Ken was brought up, and required a literal Deus Ex Machina to power himself up. Then he goes toe to toe with Vegetto, which goes to show how backwards the scale here is. The manga has Goku and Vegeta go from stomped to stomping thanks to Potara (Which was a fan-service uncalled for that even retconned a key point in the series! If you really needed temporary fusion, just do the dance ffs), while Anime MZ went from being stomped by Goku to... Going toe to toe with Goku+Vegeta? What?
Finally, the anime has some filler scenes that gives us more times with the characters as usual. Broke scaling or not it was definitely cool to see Mai sniping Goku Black while he had tea with Zamasu, and like in the Cell Saga Trunks got to once again see how different from the expected his heroes are. Trunks meeting #18 and finding out she's actually Kuririn's waifu nowadays was probably the best scene in the saga, and that's saying something.
Honestly, I'm giving the anime a higher 1.5/10 for the depth with most exclusive scenes, even if the scaling was far more wonky. Manga gets a 1/10 from me.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 27,967
Sure it might not be best to wait another week or so to give people more of a chance to contribute? Writing a thorough ToP review and comparison will also probably take quite a while.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 27,967
Well, if you insist on moving on, I guess we might as well.
Not sure whether to include the fillers between the two arcs as part of the ToP or the FT Arc. I'll say even though most of them offer little to the overall plot (bar Kuririn regaining his fighting spirit), some of them succeeded as being popcorn material.
The Tournament of Power's premise held at least somewhat more weight than any arc in Super outside of the Future Trunks Arc. Even though Universe 7 would obviously survive, it would've been an excellent opportunity to flesh out their competition, make the audience conflicted on who they wanted to win and offer genuine repercussions in their erasure in a manner similar to how the Zenith of Things Tournament from Battle Angel Alita: Last Order did. Unfortunately, everything that ZOTT had to make it great is ignored by Super doing the exact opposite of crafting a compelling tournament arc, but that's jumping the gun a bit quick.
Firstly, let's talk about the exhibition. The manga did a far better job at this by having the Hakaishin put their skills on full display and established many character personalities and dynamics far better than the manga such as Beerus and Quitela's rivalry, Belmod's sneaky nature, etc. This is a lot better than showcasing 2/3 top tier warriors of Universe 9 being weaker than a rusty Gohan
. The introduction to the Trio De Dangers and their powers are also made completely pointless with how little they actually use their unique skills in the ToP, particularly Bergamo. One aspect the anime did better though was Goku VS Toppo primarily due to how much of a regression it cemented for Galu's character through him letting his guard down, making the FnF Arc so irrelevant it was right to skip over it in the manga when Galu never learnt his lesson from it .
Next, there's the recruitment, of which both versions are polar opposites; the manga being rushed and the anime's pacing coming to a complete halt due to padding. It's difficult to say which one was better (or more accurately, less bad) when the anime has better individual moments, yet all of them would become quicly undone and presents some definite inconsistencies.
Considering the structure of the arc, I'll go over most of it by discussing the characters, starting with U7's roster in the order they were eliminated in the manga.
We'll start off with the one who didn't even participate, Boo. Both were handled comparably horribly for different reasons. Anime Boo got given a moment to hype him up as being relevant again only to be made worthless in little time (foreshadowing for Kuririn, I guess
). Meanwhile, the manga has the plot hole of Boo not just being thrown into the Rosat, something the anime at least plugged with Vegeta destroying it. Boo's absence in both versions is frustrating when his healing could've been used as a genuine reason for why Universe 7 was so plot armoured (especially in the anime, but we'll get to that) and add a whole lot of good support moves. I'd say Anime Boo was slightly better due to his absence at least not being a plot hole.
Kuririn definitely had more going for him in the anime at first with his arc of rediscovering his fighting spirit and showing his improvement in skill prior. At the same time, however, this makes his treatment a disappointment when all that build up amounts to him beating an irrelevant furry and then getting punk'd by Frost. His manga self may have had absolutely nothing new brought to the pages (and drawn so stumpy in some panels it looks like he got the GT Galu treatment :Krillin) but at least there was no disappointment to his defeat when threats to the Saiyans had long since been out of the Earthlings' league. I'd say his manga portrayal is somewhat better for that.
Next, Tenshinhan's comparison is basically the opposite for Kuririn in the anime despite being the same in the manga. Manga Ten shoots a Kikoho, for some reason expected it to do anything to Frost and gets oneshotted. Humiliating for what was once a main cast member, but par for the course for his existence since the Cell Arc if he's not able to throw out Kikohos. Anime Tenshinhan, however, was a true disgrace to his character with how he was treat as fodder at every turn despite his skillset (stomped by Manly GAINZ Roshi, treat as nothing in the 2 on 2 sparring match, doesn't even get considered as a ToP candidate and only gets added because he was there with Roshi
) and his one moment of spotlight has him be extremely stupid in using all his clones to take down the villain of the week rather than staying in the game by just sending two.
#18 had little going for her in either version. Beyond her moments with Kuririn, there wasn't anything striking about her characterisation, though her anime self at least had some genuine moments to shine and be a team player against Anilaza. Manga #18 really didn't do much other than beat up fodder and get humiliated by a bug.
Piccolo is poorly handled in both versions for very different reasons. The anime makes scaling with him weird. It's apparent he stands above pre-Ultimate Gohan, yet Gohan is also shown in filler as equal to Goku when both were Super Saiyans, despite Goku later fighting both Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in base
. Leaving that aside, it was nice to see Piccolo training Gohan again. Despite his conservative placement against Base Galu, he's then able to defeat one of the Namekians who can give Gohan trouble using the Makankosappo, to which I can only assume was through Gohan holding back (which we'll get to). Speaking of Saonel and Pirina, they were the only worthwhile new characters for the ToP in the anime due to them actually using teamwork and tactics as well as not being villainised like anyone else who fought U7. Manga Piccolo doesn't really do much, only eliminating some fodder characters. Both versions are treat pathetically in being caught off guard by Damon and knocked out of the ring only for #17 to find them through his hearing, despite Piccolo's naturally great hearing being a stat he was far above the rest of the Dragon Team in during the Cell Arc . Anime Piccolo ranks as at least slightly better due to better character moments.
Then there's his pupil Gohan, who was handled poorly in the anime for his characterisation and the manga for his power. Anime Gohan goes through a whole arc of regaining his fighting spirit and becoming a resolute warrior only to flip-flop throughout the ToP's entirety. Him making the difficult choice of going all out against Obuni and resolving to fight for his family could have been a good character moment if not for him holding back against every other competitor afterwards until he found it worth fighting seriously for, including letting Freeza tool him. The fact he even needed this character arc when he was already shown getting back into training prior to the U6 tournament also shows how badly his arc was paced. Manga Gohan doesn't have any problems in characterisation, though him simply progressing to above PSSB tier through adapting to battle was stupid. It could've worked with more establishment such as it being revealed to be what happens when someone who's gone through the ritual breaks further through their limits or link it to how he'd chosen to evolve as an Earthling somehow (which was a decent character moment) but we get nothing. Manga Gohan's character was still handled better than his anime self due to consistency though, plus tying with Kefla was a more impressive addition to his battle cred than doing the same with 
.
Roshi is one character I can say with complete certainty was handled a lot better in the anime than in the manga. Sure, the level of his gains was pretty ridiculous, but the stimulus for his training in secret and him returning to fighting was well handled in his explanation that the levels Goku and Kuririn reached inspired him, coupled with a pretty nice moment of him reciting the Turtle Hermit tenants against the duck guy and Goku showing some genuine emotion at him almost dying. His gags towards women after his "training" also help them stand out compared to his more typical repetition of "gimme paffu paffu!" and similar things, though him being treat as a rapist with Yurin was a pretty huge mischaracterisation. Manga Roshi, on the other hand, lacks any arc whatsoever and is now somehow able to compete with the likes of Jiren through a pseudo-Ultra Instinct without any notion of training and having to teach Goku lessons that should've been redundant if Galu's character was treat consistently in Super.
Vegeta regressed as a character equally in both versions. His worries of Bra being born were well handled, showing a striking yet understandable turn of not wanting to fight in the anime and the more balanced characterisation in the manga, yet all that dissipates after her birth with him returning fully to his Cell Arc personality of just wanting to surpass Kakarrot until very late into the tournament. Of the two versions, I'd say the anime handled his characterisation slightly better with his stimulus for awakening SSBE being more of a return to form with the feelings of those he cared about rather than just throwing a hissy fit about not being superior to Galu, not to mention having him cause an event to avoid a plot hole with Boo's absence we'll go through later, though his survival of the Final Explosion was a complete asspull worse than anything he did in the manga.
Freeza was treat as the wildcard of the team and his presence provided the potential for interesting interactions and plot points. Unfortunately, little was delivered on that with his role amounting to simply trolling people with his "betrayal" being a predictable bait and switch and the way he was humiliated by Toppo in the anime for being overconfident was pretty forced and led to a stupid Planet level statement from him. Manga Freeza is slightly better by virtue of not messing about too much and actually performing teamwork in a manner that wasn't forced like how he and Galu beat Jiren in the anime. Reviving him provided some level of interest for later arcs, but a large portion of that was ruined by the Broly movie's complete mischaracterisation of him.
Then there's Goku, the most consistently ruined character in Super, and that sure isn't stopping here. The way in which he got viewed as a menace by those outside U7 for potentially damning most of the universes despite it even being brought up he granted them a chance of not being inevitably erased was one of the most forced aspects of the arc. The problems with his characterisation in the arc mainly boils down to fighting skills and intelligence in both versions. Anime Goku continues to let his guard down even in pretty basic melee brawls and avoids actually preventing his allies from being chucked out of the ring despite Shunkan Ido being the perfect support move, not to mention showing his typical Toei idiocy of hearing how great Jiren is and not going SSB from the get-go. Both Galus also show a complete regression in jumping into the fray rather than working with a team, despite the many instances in Z Goku was the one to think of a plan and work as a team such as against Raditz. The only moment in both I can say was decent characterisation was his rationale for having Freeza join the team being him looking at the bigger picture. There's also Saiyans (Goku in particular) being granted the ability to progress quickly in battle and restore stamina by fighting to the point a drained Galu could quickly overpower Kale and Caulifla, though we'll go over the absolute plot armour of the Saiyans, Freeza and #17 after the character analysis.
Despite all that, anime Goku has a select few redemptive scenes such as his emotion towards Roshi's "death" and his desire to protect those he cares for when perfecting Ultra Instinct against Jiren (even if executed in a generic Shonen protagonist fashion). Manga Galu, however, just slowly gets even worse. Aside from his off-guard fiasco and apparently not being around when Gohan was born, there wasn't any incredibly damaging moments exclusive to his manga self until one character-breaking one only matched by two from the current arc; the retcon that Goku never took in the skills taught to him by his masters. This is a complete falsehood when we see him constantly display the lessons learnt throughout the original manga such as using Popo's techings against Tenshinhan and far later against Yakon. Toyotaro shows he lacks any fundamental knowledge of Goku's experiences and just decided to make him a Luffy clone. For this, Anime Goku edges it out as being slightly less horrendous due to not flanderising such important aspects of Goku's journey to the same extent.
Finally, #17. In both versions, his characterisation is surprisingly good compared to the rest of the team. His adjustments to his new lifestyle that show a more relaxed and kind version of him are a logical progression of his character from the Cell Arc (and fits with his cameo in the Boo Arc) and his job as a Park Ranger is a nice touch when considering #16's love of nature may have inspired him. The anime also has a decent moment of him and Piccolo putting aside the emotions from their battle and greeting each other as allies. This would make #17 the one well written character in the arc...if not for an obvious flaw; being just how much his plot armour, excellence and focus damages him by making him a Gary Stu more often than not. The elephant in the room is obviously his Park Ranger GAINZ. I could stomach an infinite energy type gaining such power from training when considering their biology, but smacking poachers on the job for nearly two decades is no training regardless of what reality you live in. His durability in taking attacks from Hakaishin Toppo in the anime and many from Jiren in the manga yet being the one to outlast the rest is an obvious flaw too, but perhaps the most problematic is his super hearing. Let's be fair and assume his enhancements indeed give him better hearing than Namekians and he can easily hear humans over long distances. Okay, so why did he never use this ability in the Cell Arc when beneficial? There's also moments like him overcoming Botamo's ability as though it were nothing in the manga and Vegeta even praising him as the universe's savior in a very out of character manner, which seems to be treating him as too good when combined with everything else. One thing that really shifts the scales on which version was handled better was how inconsistent the scaling is for him in the anime. One episode, he'll be showing SSB tier feats. The next, he's being outperformed by Base Galu. All that said, Manga #17 takes the win from being treat somewhat more consistently power-wise.
Tallying up character writing for both versions for the U7 team, seems the anime is in the lead 6-5. Things become more skewered though when looking at the characters they faced. The only one worth discussing in detail is Jiren, seeing as how Kale/Caulifa/Kefla are all very one-note and the only thing to say about Hit is that Time Lag is far better than him suddenly progressing to being 20x stronger in the anime. Cutting to the chase, Manga Jiren is far better due to actually being a consistent character with genuine motivations that could be seen as sympathetic, actually succeeding in showing the other universes as having heroic characters. He's still completely bland, but at least he's not an inconsistent mess like his anime self who goes from talking about how pathetic Vegeta is about whining about his strength to ranting about his own strength not long after and his goal of achieving absolute strength made him far more of an egotistical caricature. Aside from him, the only other contender worth bringing up is Toppo's poor treatment in the anime being far worse than his bland role in the manga. Hakaishin mode being unlocked by him abandoning his sense of justice happening so late makes no sense when he'd already admitted to Dyspo justice didn't matter anymore.
Speaking of Jiren being villainised in the anime, that's one of its major problems when it comes to the other competitors as any who face Universe 7 or even some of Universe 6 fighters get portrayed in the anime as completely throwing away whatever redeeming traits they have or being rewritten entirely, which is inconsistent not only for their characters, but for the theme of the arc in each universe doing their best to survive and the conflict not meant to be so black and white. Caulifla and Kale are fighting the Pride Troopers or Napapa? Best make the latter start laughing and tormenting them despite supposedly all being for justice, especially Jiren's fighting U7? Best make him out to be a complete scumbag. It ruins whatever kind of nuances the premise of the arc was going for, leaving the blander portrayal of the opponents in the ToP to be far better due to at least being consistent. The only exceptions in the anime were Obuni, Saonel and Pirina, none of which appeared for long enough to make much impact on the plot or characters beyond fleeting moments.
Speaking of inconsistent premises, this can be said of the entire tournament, especially in the anime. What rules are presented in the tournament are made fairly pointless either by the outcome or Zen-Oh's bending of the rules. The Denshi Jar for Roshi's Mafuba or the Potaras being allowed just because "they're cool" goes completely against the rules of the ToP and systematically calls them all into question. The no-killing rule falls apart immediately due to the outcome of a losing universe being that its entirety gets erased, something far worse than death in the DB World, not to mention it limits characters such as Hit, despite the catalyst for all this happening being Zen-Oh watching Goku VS Hit in which the former made it apparent it couldn't be an all-out fight with a tournament's rules. Perhaps the biggest case of this is exclusive to the anime and really skewers things in terms of which version is better, but we'll leave that for towards the end.
Before that, let's bring up the plot armour already mentioned. The way in which Universe 7's characters are so protected simply for their standing in the plot is brought to ludicrous levels in the anime with Goku and Vegeta seemingly having infinite stamina despite using stamina draining forms and attacks, making the whole thing about conserving stamina pointless immediately. Yes, the U7 team needed to survive because of the End of Z, but that doesn't necessitate Goku or Vegeta staying in so long. A battle royale setting provided the opportunity for such a climactic thing as Goku VS Jiren to happen far beyond the end and the former's elimination to be a good twist if utilised. The setting didn't require the strongest in raw power to stay until the end, something evident with U4's fighters and #17 being the overall winner, yet both versions chose to go back to the predictable route. In fact, Universe 7 didn't even need to win when considering the wish at the end. You could've had Jiren be swayed by his opponents and convinced to revive the other universes, and his victory wouldn't go against the tone of the arc when considering Goku couldn't beat him alone.
On the subject of Goku VS Jiren, it's time to talk about one of the main parts of the arc - Ultra Instinct. In both versions, the catalyst for the form is completely illogical. In the anime, Goku throws a Genki Dama at Jiren (despite having no indication it'd work when Jiren was presented as a hero and the Genki Dama is useless on the good hearted) and then it gets deflected at Goku to everyone's shock (despite the fact they should know it can't hurt him). Also, in Super fashion, this small amount of U7 supporters is enough to make a Genki Dama strong enough to make Jiren struggle despite how we saw it doesn't scale linearly to the donor's battle power in the Boo Arc. Then this is great enough stimulus to unlock Ultra Instinct, rather than either killing him or doing nothing because plot armour. It then doesn't help how the form is really just treat as the epitome of a plot hax, with it wearing off and only reactivating whenever the plot requires it. The manga version isn't much better. It at least lacks the numerous Genki Dama inconsistencies, yet it just activating because Galu got reminded of what should be common knowledge to him and then saw Roshi get eliminated in a nonsensical manner. It also doesn't help the form is basically just Popo's teachings treat like they never happened and that, even after apparently perfecting Ultra Instinct, Goku still couldn't use it at will, thus making his role in the arc utterly pointless. At least the anime had a cool theme song for Ultra Instinct though.
On the subject of pointlessness, there's then the ending. All that happened in the arc is made redundant by everyone being revived and nothing really being gained beyond new, temporary forms that (as we'd later see) could've just been introduced as the result of Goku and Vegeta's training in the Moro Arc. Sure, there's Freeza's revival, but that did more harm than good to his character as we'd soon see and his presence has been devoid from the Moro Arc. This is even more insulting in the anime with the reveal Zen-Oh would've only allowed a selfless wish, thus making any sort of stakes from a more nefarious character like Freeza or Jiren getting their way being a false sense of tension that destroys any sense of genuine stakes the arc could have held.
All that said, both versions of the Tournament of Asspulls are guilty of a devoid and broken premise, a complete lack of stakes and more plot holes than can be counted (and if I did list them all, this post would make
's appeal look like a post-it note). If any arc in Super serves as a shining example of what modern Dragon Ball has been mutated into and reduced to, it's this arc with its complete lack of logic or care for characters which is substituted by superficial spectacle. Comparing the two versions, the manga version has far fewer highlights, but its huge problems aren't quite as numerous as the anime's.
Manga - 1/10
Anime - 0.5/10
Not sure whether to include the fillers between the two arcs as part of the ToP or the FT Arc. I'll say even though most of them offer little to the overall plot (bar Kuririn regaining his fighting spirit), some of them succeeded as being popcorn material.
The Tournament of Power's premise held at least somewhat more weight than any arc in Super outside of the Future Trunks Arc. Even though Universe 7 would obviously survive, it would've been an excellent opportunity to flesh out their competition, make the audience conflicted on who they wanted to win and offer genuine repercussions in their erasure in a manner similar to how the Zenith of Things Tournament from Battle Angel Alita: Last Order did. Unfortunately, everything that ZOTT had to make it great is ignored by Super doing the exact opposite of crafting a compelling tournament arc, but that's jumping the gun a bit quick.
Firstly, let's talk about the exhibition. The manga did a far better job at this by having the Hakaishin put their skills on full display and established many character personalities and dynamics far better than the manga such as Beerus and Quitela's rivalry, Belmod's sneaky nature, etc. This is a lot better than showcasing 2/3 top tier warriors of Universe 9 being weaker than a rusty Gohan
. The introduction to the Trio De Dangers and their powers are also made completely pointless with how little they actually use their unique skills in the ToP, particularly Bergamo. One aspect the anime did better though was Goku VS Toppo primarily due to how much of a regression it cemented for Galu's character through him letting his guard down, making the FnF Arc so irrelevant it was right to skip over it in the manga when Galu never learnt his lesson from it .Next, there's the recruitment, of which both versions are polar opposites; the manga being rushed and the anime's pacing coming to a complete halt due to padding. It's difficult to say which one was better (or more accurately, less bad) when the anime has better individual moments, yet all of them would become quicly undone and presents some definite inconsistencies.
Considering the structure of the arc, I'll go over most of it by discussing the characters, starting with U7's roster in the order they were eliminated in the manga.
We'll start off with the one who didn't even participate, Boo. Both were handled comparably horribly for different reasons. Anime Boo got given a moment to hype him up as being relevant again only to be made worthless in little time (foreshadowing for Kuririn, I guess
). Meanwhile, the manga has the plot hole of Boo not just being thrown into the Rosat, something the anime at least plugged with Vegeta destroying it. Boo's absence in both versions is frustrating when his healing could've been used as a genuine reason for why Universe 7 was so plot armoured (especially in the anime, but we'll get to that) and add a whole lot of good support moves. I'd say Anime Boo was slightly better due to his absence at least not being a plot hole.Kuririn definitely had more going for him in the anime at first with his arc of rediscovering his fighting spirit and showing his improvement in skill prior. At the same time, however, this makes his treatment a disappointment when all that build up amounts to him beating an irrelevant furry and then getting punk'd by Frost. His manga self may have had absolutely nothing new brought to the pages (and drawn so stumpy in some panels it looks like he got the GT Galu treatment :Krillin) but at least there was no disappointment to his defeat when threats to the Saiyans had long since been out of the Earthlings' league. I'd say his manga portrayal is somewhat better for that.
Next, Tenshinhan's comparison is basically the opposite for Kuririn in the anime despite being the same in the manga. Manga Ten shoots a Kikoho, for some reason expected it to do anything to Frost and gets oneshotted. Humiliating for what was once a main cast member, but par for the course for his existence since the Cell Arc if he's not able to throw out Kikohos. Anime Tenshinhan, however, was a true disgrace to his character with how he was treat as fodder at every turn despite his skillset (stomped by Manly GAINZ Roshi, treat as nothing in the 2 on 2 sparring match, doesn't even get considered as a ToP candidate and only gets added because he was there with Roshi
) and his one moment of spotlight has him be extremely stupid in using all his clones to take down the villain of the week rather than staying in the game by just sending two.#18 had little going for her in either version. Beyond her moments with Kuririn, there wasn't anything striking about her characterisation, though her anime self at least had some genuine moments to shine and be a team player against Anilaza. Manga #18 really didn't do much other than beat up fodder and get humiliated by a bug
.Piccolo is poorly handled in both versions for very different reasons. The anime makes scaling with him weird. It's apparent he stands above pre-Ultimate Gohan, yet Gohan is also shown in filler as equal to Goku when both were Super Saiyans, despite Goku later fighting both Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in base
. Leaving that aside, it was nice to see Piccolo training Gohan again. Despite his conservative placement against Base Galu, he's then able to defeat one of the Namekians who can give Gohan trouble using the Makankosappo, to which I can only assume was through Gohan holding back (which we'll get to). Speaking of Saonel and Pirina, they were the only worthwhile new characters for the ToP in the anime due to them actually using teamwork and tactics as well as not being villainised like anyone else who fought U7. Manga Piccolo doesn't really do much, only eliminating some fodder characters. Both versions are treat pathetically in being caught off guard by Damon and knocked out of the ring only for #17 to find them through his hearing, despite Piccolo's naturally great hearing being a stat he was far above the rest of the Dragon Team in during the Cell Arc . Anime Piccolo ranks as at least slightly better due to better character moments.Then there's his pupil Gohan, who was handled poorly in the anime for his characterisation and the manga for his power. Anime Gohan goes through a whole arc of regaining his fighting spirit and becoming a resolute warrior only to flip-flop throughout the ToP's entirety. Him making the difficult choice of going all out against Obuni and resolving to fight for his family could have been a good character moment if not for him holding back against every other competitor afterwards until he found it worth fighting seriously for, including letting Freeza tool him
. The fact he even needed this character arc when he was already shown getting back into training prior to the U6 tournament also shows how badly his arc was paced. Manga Gohan doesn't have any problems in characterisation, though him simply progressing to above PSSB tier through adapting to battle was stupid. It could've worked with more establishment such as it being revealed to be what happens when someone who's gone through the ritual breaks further through their limits or link it to how he'd chosen to evolve as an Earthling somehow (which was a decent character moment) but we get nothing. Manga Gohan's character was still handled better than his anime self due to consistency though, plus tying with Kefla was a more impressive addition to his battle cred than doing the same with .Roshi is one character I can say with complete certainty was handled a lot better in the anime than in the manga. Sure, the level of his gains was pretty ridiculous, but the stimulus for his training in secret and him returning to fighting was well handled in his explanation that the levels Goku and Kuririn reached inspired him, coupled with a pretty nice moment of him reciting the Turtle Hermit tenants against the duck guy and Goku showing some genuine emotion at him almost dying. His gags towards women after his "training" also help them stand out compared to his more typical repetition of "gimme paffu paffu!" and similar things, though him being treat as a rapist with Yurin was a pretty huge mischaracterisation. Manga Roshi, on the other hand, lacks any arc whatsoever and is now somehow able to compete with the likes of Jiren through a pseudo-Ultra Instinct without any notion of training and having to teach Goku lessons that should've been redundant if Galu's character was treat consistently in Super.
Vegeta regressed as a character equally in both versions. His worries of Bra being born were well handled, showing a striking yet understandable turn of not wanting to fight in the anime and the more balanced characterisation in the manga, yet all that dissipates after her birth with him returning fully to his Cell Arc personality of just wanting to surpass Kakarrot until very late into the tournament. Of the two versions, I'd say the anime handled his characterisation slightly better with his stimulus for awakening SSBE being more of a return to form with the feelings of those he cared about rather than just throwing a hissy fit about not being superior to Galu, not to mention having him cause an event to avoid a plot hole with Boo's absence we'll go through later, though his survival of the Final Explosion was a complete asspull worse than anything he did in the manga.
Freeza was treat as the wildcard of the team and his presence provided the potential for interesting interactions and plot points. Unfortunately, little was delivered on that with his role amounting to simply trolling people with his "betrayal" being a predictable bait and switch and the way he was humiliated by Toppo in the anime for being overconfident was pretty forced and led to a stupid Planet level statement from him. Manga Freeza is slightly better by virtue of not messing about too much and actually performing teamwork in a manner that wasn't forced like how he and Galu beat Jiren in the anime. Reviving him provided some level of interest for later arcs, but a large portion of that was ruined by the Broly movie's complete mischaracterisation of him.
Then there's Goku, the most consistently ruined character in Super, and that sure isn't stopping here. The way in which he got viewed as a menace by those outside U7 for potentially damning most of the universes despite it even being brought up he granted them a chance of not being inevitably erased was one of the most forced aspects of the arc. The problems with his characterisation in the arc mainly boils down to fighting skills and intelligence in both versions. Anime Goku continues to let his guard down even in pretty basic melee brawls and avoids actually preventing his allies from being chucked out of the ring despite Shunkan Ido being the perfect support move, not to mention showing his typical Toei idiocy of hearing how great Jiren is and not going SSB from the get-go
. Both Galus also show a complete regression in jumping into the fray rather than working with a team, despite the many instances in Z Goku was the one to think of a plan and work as a team such as against Raditz. The only moment in both I can say was decent characterisation was his rationale for having Freeza join the team being him looking at the bigger picture. There's also Saiyans (Goku in particular) being granted the ability to progress quickly in battle and restore stamina by fighting to the point a drained Galu could quickly overpower Kale and Caulifla, though we'll go over the absolute plot armour of the Saiyans, Freeza and #17 after the character analysis.Despite all that, anime Goku has a select few redemptive scenes such as his emotion towards Roshi's "death" and his desire to protect those he cares for when perfecting Ultra Instinct against Jiren (even if executed in a generic Shonen protagonist fashion). Manga Galu, however, just slowly gets even worse. Aside from his off-guard fiasco and apparently not being around when Gohan was born, there wasn't any incredibly damaging moments exclusive to his manga self until one character-breaking one only matched by two from the current arc; the retcon that Goku never took in the skills taught to him by his masters. This is a complete falsehood when we see him constantly display the lessons learnt throughout the original manga such as using Popo's techings against Tenshinhan and far later against Yakon. Toyotaro shows he lacks any fundamental knowledge of Goku's experiences and just decided to make him a Luffy clone. For this, Anime Goku edges it out as being slightly less horrendous due to not flanderising such important aspects of Goku's journey to the same extent.
Finally, #17. In both versions, his characterisation is surprisingly good compared to the rest of the team. His adjustments to his new lifestyle that show a more relaxed and kind version of him are a logical progression of his character from the Cell Arc (and fits with his cameo in the Boo Arc) and his job as a Park Ranger is a nice touch when considering #16's love of nature may have inspired him. The anime also has a decent moment of him and Piccolo putting aside the emotions from their battle and greeting each other as allies. This would make #17 the one well written character in the arc...if not for an obvious flaw; being just how much his plot armour, excellence and focus damages him by making him a Gary Stu more often than not. The elephant in the room is obviously his Park Ranger GAINZ. I could stomach an infinite energy type gaining such power from training when considering their biology, but smacking poachers on the job for nearly two decades is no training regardless of what reality you live in. His durability in taking attacks from Hakaishin Toppo in the anime and many from Jiren in the manga yet being the one to outlast the rest is an obvious flaw too, but perhaps the most problematic is his super hearing. Let's be fair and assume his enhancements indeed give him better hearing than Namekians and he can easily hear humans over long distances. Okay, so why did he never use this ability in the Cell Arc when beneficial? There's also moments like him overcoming Botamo's ability as though it were nothing in the manga and Vegeta even praising him as the universe's savior in a very out of character manner, which seems to be treating him as too good when combined with everything else. One thing that really shifts the scales on which version was handled better was how inconsistent the scaling is for him in the anime. One episode, he'll be showing SSB tier feats. The next, he's being outperformed by Base Galu
. All that said, Manga #17 takes the win from being treat somewhat more consistently power-wise.Tallying up character writing for both versions for the U7 team, seems the anime is in the lead 6-5. Things become more skewered though when looking at the characters they faced. The only one worth discussing in detail is Jiren, seeing as how Kale/Caulifa/Kefla are all very one-note and the only thing to say about Hit is that Time Lag is far better than him suddenly progressing to being 20x stronger in the anime. Cutting to the chase, Manga Jiren is far better due to actually being a consistent character with genuine motivations that could be seen as sympathetic, actually succeeding in showing the other universes as having heroic characters. He's still completely bland, but at least he's not an inconsistent mess like his anime self who goes from talking about how pathetic Vegeta is about whining about his strength to ranting about his own strength not long after and his goal of achieving absolute strength made him far more of an egotistical caricature. Aside from him, the only other contender worth bringing up is Toppo's poor treatment in the anime being far worse than his bland role in the manga. Hakaishin mode being unlocked by him abandoning his sense of justice happening so late makes no sense when he'd already admitted to Dyspo justice didn't matter anymore.
Speaking of Jiren being villainised in the anime, that's one of its major problems when it comes to the other competitors as any who face Universe 7 or even some of Universe 6 fighters get portrayed in the anime as completely throwing away whatever redeeming traits they have or being rewritten entirely, which is inconsistent not only for their characters, but for the theme of the arc in each universe doing their best to survive and the conflict not meant to be so black and white. Caulifla and Kale are fighting the Pride Troopers or Napapa? Best make the latter start laughing and tormenting them despite supposedly all being for justice, especially
Jiren's fighting U7? Best make him out to be a complete scumbag. It ruins whatever kind of nuances the premise of the arc was going for, leaving the blander portrayal of the opponents in the ToP to be far better due to at least being consistent. The only exceptions in the anime were Obuni, Saonel and Pirina, none of which appeared for long enough to make much impact on the plot or characters beyond fleeting moments.Speaking of inconsistent premises, this can be said of the entire tournament, especially in the anime. What rules are presented in the tournament are made fairly pointless either by the outcome or Zen-Oh's bending of the rules. The Denshi Jar for Roshi's Mafuba or the Potaras being allowed just because "they're cool" goes completely against the rules of the ToP and systematically calls them all into question. The no-killing rule falls apart immediately due to the outcome of a losing universe being that its entirety gets erased, something far worse than death in the DB World, not to mention it limits characters such as Hit, despite the catalyst for all this happening being Zen-Oh watching Goku VS Hit in which the former made it apparent it couldn't be an all-out fight with a tournament's rules
. Perhaps the biggest case of this is exclusive to the anime and really skewers things in terms of which version is better, but we'll leave that for towards the end.Before that, let's bring up the plot armour already mentioned. The way in which Universe 7's characters are so protected simply for their standing in the plot is brought to ludicrous levels in the anime with Goku and Vegeta seemingly having infinite stamina despite using stamina draining forms and attacks, making the whole thing about conserving stamina pointless immediately. Yes, the U7 team needed to survive because of the End of Z, but that doesn't necessitate Goku or Vegeta staying in so long. A battle royale setting provided the opportunity for such a climactic thing as Goku VS Jiren to happen far beyond the end and the former's elimination to be a good twist if utilised. The setting didn't require the strongest in raw power to stay until the end, something evident with U4's fighters and #17 being the overall winner, yet both versions chose to go back to the predictable route. In fact, Universe 7 didn't even need to win when considering the wish at the end. You could've had Jiren be swayed by his opponents and convinced to revive the other universes, and his victory wouldn't go against the tone of the arc when considering Goku couldn't beat him alone.
On the subject of Goku VS Jiren, it's time to talk about one of the main parts of the arc - Ultra Instinct. In both versions, the catalyst for the form is completely illogical. In the anime, Goku throws a Genki Dama at Jiren (despite having no indication it'd work when Jiren was presented as a hero and the Genki Dama is useless on the good hearted) and then it gets deflected at Goku to everyone's shock (despite the fact they should know it can't hurt him). Also, in Super fashion, this small amount of U7 supporters is enough to make a Genki Dama strong enough to make Jiren struggle despite how we saw it doesn't scale linearly to the donor's battle power in the Boo Arc. Then this is great enough stimulus to unlock Ultra Instinct, rather than either killing him or doing nothing because plot armour
. It then doesn't help how the form is really just treat as the epitome of a plot hax, with it wearing off and only reactivating whenever the plot requires it. The manga version isn't much better. It at least lacks the numerous Genki Dama inconsistencies, yet it just activating because Galu got reminded of what should be common knowledge to him and then saw Roshi get eliminated in a nonsensical manner. It also doesn't help the form is basically just Popo's teachings treat like they never happened and that, even after apparently perfecting Ultra Instinct, Goku still couldn't use it at will, thus making his role in the arc utterly pointless. At least the anime had a cool theme song for Ultra Instinct though.On the subject of pointlessness, there's then the ending. All that happened in the arc is made redundant by everyone being revived and nothing really being gained beyond new, temporary forms that (as we'd later see) could've just been introduced as the result of Goku and Vegeta's training in the Moro Arc. Sure, there's Freeza's revival, but that did more harm than good to his character as we'd soon see and his presence has been devoid from the Moro Arc. This is even more insulting in the anime with the reveal Zen-Oh would've only allowed a selfless wish, thus making any sort of stakes from a more nefarious character like Freeza or Jiren getting their way being a false sense of tension that destroys any sense of genuine stakes the arc could have held.
All that said, both versions of the Tournament of Asspulls are guilty of a devoid and broken premise, a complete lack of stakes and more plot holes than can be counted (and if I did list them all, this post would make
's appeal look like a post-it note). If any arc in Super serves as a shining example of what modern Dragon Ball has been mutated into and reduced to, it's this arc with its complete lack of logic or care for characters which is substituted by superficial spectacle. Comparing the two versions, the manga version has far fewer highlights, but its huge problems aren't quite as numerous as the anime's.Manga - 1/10
Anime - 0.5/10
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2015
- Messages
- 6,390
- Age
- 23
Captain Cadaver said:The elephant in the room is obviously his Park Ranger GAINZ. I could stomach an infinite energy type gaining such power from training when considering their biology, but smacking poachers on the job for nearly two decades is no training regardless of what reality you live in. His durability in taking attacks from Hakaishin Toppo in the anime and many from Jiren in the manga yet being the one to outlast the rest is an obvious flaw too, but perhaps the most problematic is his super hearing. Let's be fair and assume his enhancements indeed give him better hearing than Namekians and he can easily hear humans over long distances. Okay, so why did he never use this ability in the Cell Arc when beneficial? There's also moments like him overcoming Botamo's ability as though it were nothing in the manga and Vegeta even praising him as the universe's savior in a very out of character manner, which seems to be treating him as too good when combined with everything else. One thing that really shifts the scales on which version was handled better was how inconsistent the scaling is for him in the anime. One episode, he'll be showing SSB tier feats. The next, he's being outperformed by Base Galu
If you wanna talk powerscaling, in the manga its pretty much said that he simply became that strong for no reason. Without training or anything. This was jokingly said by several characters in the arc.
My speculation is that Toriyama's notes showcased #17's power without explicit detail, so Toei decided to give the reasoning that he went through training to become more powerful while Toyotaro kind of made it into a gag.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2017
- Messages
- 15,416
- Age
- 22
Captain Cadaver said:
I might have if you had quoted/@‘d me, because this went right under the radar. Not like anyone would’ve joined us on beating this deadhorse anyway though
Well, understanding the ToP alone already takes a couple weeks, so maybe a month would’ve been the perfect time.
- Joined
- May 31, 2015
- Messages
- 27,967
Since this is a thread directly comparing the manga and anime, it'd be impossible until the Moro Arc is also complete in the anime.
For rating the Moro Arc this thread would probably be more appropriate.
For rating the Moro Arc this thread would probably be more appropriate.
Latest profile posts
Tell your friend to talk to someone he trusts, and if that does not work, seeing the "professional" is better than dying.