DBSuper Black Arc Manga PL List.

[ekrolo2]

Since I'm of the opinion that the anime is kind of a disaster area when it comes to power levels and the manga is far more consistent in this regard, I've decided to take a crack at doing a PL list for it. I'm going with the idea that Base Saiyan's were, up until recently, inferior to 100% Namek Freeza and as such, I've had to come up with some fairly big multipliers for Goku & Vegeta's God forms so they can be above SS3 Vegetto.

Goku - 280 mil (Base)
- 14 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 28 bill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 112 bill (Super Saiyan 3)
-28 trill (Super Saiyan God, 2.8 on the God Scale, x100,000 Base)
- 56 trill (Super Saiyan Blue, 5.6 on the God Scale, x2 SSGod)

Vegeta - 275 mill (Base)
- 13.75 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 27.50 bill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 55 trill (Super Saiyan Blue)

The manga doesn't give Goku or Vegeta stronger base forms as evidenced by the fact they're roughly on par with one another and Super Saiyan God is readily available to Goku for use whereas it becomes absorbed by him in the anime/movies. They may or may not be stronger than Piccolo now but since I'm a power minimalist I like to keep them on the lower end of the spectrum.

For an idea of where these two stack up to the strongest Boo era fighters, here's a quick list of those guys:

Spoiler

Spoiler: click to toggle
Gotenks - 250 bill (Super Saiyan 3)
Gohan - 400 bill (Ultimate)
Super Boo - 250 bill (regular)
- 502 bill (Bootenks)
- 252 bill (Booccolo)
- 652 bill (Boohan)

Vegetto - 25 bill (base)
- 1.250 trill (Super Saiyan)
- 2.500 trill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 10 trill (Super Saiyan 3)

[/b]

Future Trunks - 282 mil (Base)
- 14.1 bill (Super Saiyan)
- 28.2 bill (Super Saiyan 2)
- 98.7 bill (Full-Power Super Saiyan 2, x3.5 SS2)

Whis says Trunks has the slight advantage over Goku when the two of them battle in Super Saiyan 2 and Vegeta comments on how Trunks' power has increased nearly to the same amount as Goku's as an SS3. How does this work? Trunks stated he worked his a*** off every day for 10 years, I imagine similarly to how Vegeta did during the 7-year gap. This, coupled with Vegeta and Goku's base forms not being supremely stronger than they were before creates a good window of opportunity for Trunks to stay close to them outside the god forms.

As for his Super Saiyan 2 increase, I believe Trunks adopted Goku's SS1 mastery idea to 2. Allowing him to use energy he'd previously waste on activating/maintaining SS2 to temporarily take the form beyond its limits. I don't think he can do this permanently but rather for a quick boost to take his opponent off guard and land a decisive blow.

Black - 1.2 trillion
- 60 trillion (SSRose, x50 Base Boost)

Trunks scoffs at Goku's praise at his power increase, commenting that he was still worthless fodder to Black who completely scoffed at all of Trunks' attacks like they were nothing. Upon hearing this, Goku decides to ask Beerus for help as he feels like they might need more help with the situation than he originally assumed they would. However, since we haven't had Goku fight Black yet in the past or the future, and we have some idea of what Rose is (just a modified SS form using Zamasu's Ki instead of Goku's) I've decided to make it an x50 Base Boost like regular SS.

 

[SSJ2]

I honestly don't even know how to comment. I've watched and read all of Super but I can't wrap my head around the scaling whatsoever. Kudos to anyone that can.

 

[ekrolo2]

I honestly don't even know how to comment. I've watched and read all of Super but I can't wrap my head around the scaling whatsoever. Kudos to anyone that can.

I've given up on the anime honestly

I think the manga makes a lot more sense, there are some iffy decisions like Blue's diminish returns after multiple activations and Trunks' "Full-Power SS2" but that's small fries compared to most of the anime or even the Boo arc.

 

[SSJ2]

Maybe I'll try to analyze the manga more then. I just can't get into its art style so I end up just skimming it and not giving it much thought. At least Viz is releasing it for free.

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm pretty sure they increased their base forms. ROF still occurred in the Manga since Goku mentioned how Frost could get much stronger if he trained just like Freeza.

 

[Void]

Yeah RoF did occur in the manga as well. Base Goku is > Gohan at the very least.

 

[ekrolo2]

I'm pretty sure they increased their base forms. ROF still occurred in the Manga since Goku mentioned how Frost could get much stronger if he trained just like Freeza.

I think Piccolo's performance against Frost and SSGod being just another form Goku can use disproves the absorption theory for the manga. Piccolo, who didn't train with Gohan and was treated as fairly useless by everyone present, gave Frost a hard enough fight and Vegeta, fighting this same tired, beaten Frost, had to use Super Saiyan to go easy on him.

Given the fact Toyotaro treated Goku's Base as SSGod absorbed in the F manga, I think he just had Goku use that form to combat Freeza's fourth form in his hypothetical Super F version. If you notice, no one but Goten and Trunks are surprised by the fact Goku can use SSGod as its own state now and the boys were (in)famously, excluded from the final battle of the arc (or the whole story for the movie).

 

[Future Warrior]

I'm pretty sure they increased their base forms. ROF still occurred in the Manga since Goku mentioned how Frost could get much stronger if he trained just like Freeza.

I think Piccolo's performance against Frost and SSGod being just another form Goku can use disproves the absorption theory for the manga. Piccolo, who didn't train with Gohan and was treated as fairly useless by everyone present, gave Frost a hard enough fight and Vegeta, fighting this same tired, beaten Frost, had to use Super Saiyan to go easy on him.

Given the fact Toyotaro treated Goku's Base as SSGod absorbed in the F manga, I think he just had Goku use that form to combat Freeza's fourth form in his hypothetical Super F version. If you notice, no one but Goten and Trunks are surprised by the fact Goku can use SSGod as its own state now and the boys were (in)famously, excluded from the final battle of the arc (or the whole story for the movie).

Actually, Trunks and Goten weren't the only ones in the Z Senshi they were surprised of SSG Goku's appearance.

Spoiler

You could see above that everyone had shocked faces when Goku turned SSG. Even Roshi and Kuririn and Tenshinhan, who were actually present during the fight with Freeza were shocked. You could also see Piccolo doing the same.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku keeping up with suppressed Hit in base and SSJ disprove the theory that they didn't gain power from gaining god forms imo. Plus it'd be retarded for Champa to be that confident if at least two fighters (Cabba, Botamo) were basically at best somewhat above base Goku from the BoG saga.

 

[ekrolo2]

Goku keeping up with suppressed Hit in base and SSJ disprove the theory that they didn't gain power from gaining god forms imo. Plus it'd be retarded for Champa to be that confident if at least two fighters (Cabba, Botamo) were basically at best somewhat above base Goku from the BoG saga.

Champa already thinks Goku & Vegeta are chumps since he seems them while they're just training with Whis' and their power doesn't impress them much. I also think Hit is just holding back not to kill Base & SS Goku. When two equal opponents fight one another, they can damage one another equally, however, Hit has Time Skip meaning that, unless you can see past his ability, he still has the decisive edge even if he's dropped his power to equal yours. It's basically how Perfect Cell fights Goku in the CGs, he keeps himself roughly on par with an inferior fighter but gives himself enough of an edge to not get killed by accident.

There's also the fact Hit is shown to be outside his element. When he knocks out Vegeta, he has to ask the referee what exactly is he supposed to do with him and Goku later confirms he's refraining from using killing blows.

Actually, Trunks and Goten weren't the only ones in the Z Senshi they were surprised of SSG Goku's appearance.

Spoiler

You could see above that everyone had shocked faces when Goku turned SSG. Even Roshi and Kuririn and Tenshinhan, who were actually present during the fight with Freeza were shocked. You could also see Piccolo doing the same.

Good catch! I can't believe I missed that!

Still, Piccolo does say "Why is he doing that?" as I think he and everyone else expected him to go to Blue, Vegeta even comments on how Goku is conserving power still instead of going all out. He doesn't seem surprised by the fact Goku can use SSGod but rather that he's using that instead of Blue.

Or maybe I'm just really reaching right now

I do think Piccolo's performance should be taken into account when gauging Base Saiyan's power and absorbing God was the reason Goku's Base gets as strong as it does in the BoG movie & Super's anime. Later on when Goku fights Trunks, he even says Trunks is even stronger than Gohan was, a statement that doesn't mean much if Goku is already leagues above Gohan just in Base.

 

[Papasmurf]

Goku keeping up with suppressed Hit in base and SSJ disprove the theory that they didn't gain power from gaining god forms imo. Plus it'd be retarded for Champa to be that confident if at least two fighters (Cabba, Botamo) were basically at best somewhat above base Goku from the BoG saga.

Champa already thinks Goku & Vegeta are chumps since he seems them while they're just training with Whis' and their power doesn't impress them much. I also think Hit is just holding back not to kill Base & SS Goku. When two equal opponents fight one another, they can damage one another equally, however, Hit has Time Skip meaning that, unless you can see past his ability, he still has the decisive edge even if he's dropped his power to equal yours. It's basically how Perfect Cell fights Goku in the CGs, he keeps himself roughly on par with an inferior fighter but gives himself enough of an edge to not get killed by accident.

There's also the fact Hit is shown to be outside his element. When he knocks out Vegeta, he has to ask the referee what exactly is he supposed to do with him and Goku later confirms he's refraining from using killing blows.

He's still holding back killing moves against the likes of SSJG Goku who's astronomically above anyone non-God from the BoG saga, and he could only stop that Goku once because they were so close in power and his FP was killing him. I don't put that much stock in him holding back killing moves

I am aware he underestimated them because they were wearing weights, yes, but with Toriyama's numerous suggestions that Goku was "mastering" SSJ and base forms (meaning this isn't just a reference to SSJB) to improve over his SSJ2/SSJ3 (although forgetful brought those forms back anyway), and the fact that Hit was treated like a pr big threat and was able to stop 10% SSJB Vegeta with ease in that power, I just can't buy the thought that Goku's power was barely increased from early Super. Unless SSJB Vegeta who's stated to nearly rival the gods in the manga continuity is maybe 20x scrubs like BoG arc SSJ Goku which is bullshit in my book.

 

[ekrolo2]

He's still holding back killing moves against the likes of SSJG Goku who's astronomically above anyone non-God from the BoG saga, and he could only stop that Goku once because they were so close in power and his FP was killing him. I don't put that much stock in him holding back killing moves

I am aware he underestimated them because they were wearing weights, yes, but with Toriyama's numerous suggestions that Goku was "mastering" SSJ and base forms (meaning this isn't just a reference to SSJB) to improve over his SSJ2/SSJ3 (although forgetful brought those forms back anyway), and the fact that Hit was treated like a pr big threat and was able to stop 10% SSJB Vegeta with ease in that power, I just can't buy the thought that Goku's power was barely increased from early Super. Unless SSJB Vegeta who's stated to nearly rival the gods in the manga continuity is maybe 20x scrubs like BoG arc SSJ Goku which is bullshit in my book.

SSGod Goku was strong enough for Hit to feel confident enough to fight at full power, though still not using killing moves, with everyone else, he HAS to hold back his true power to avoid killing them because killing them is something he's been trained for, not strictly martial arts. With SSGod Goku? He knows Goku can take his toughest, not murderous, punch.

I also just ignore Toriyama's comments at this point

I mean, everything he's said has been contradicted by either himself or by everyone adapting his work. The God scale of 6-10-15 doesn't count, the apparent abandonment of SS2 and SS3 doesn't count, and he clearly doesn't care about Goku absorbing SSGod into himself if he let Toyotaro's manga, a work he personally supervises, have it return as its own state.

I do think that Goku & Vegeta are quite a bit stronger in the tourney than pre-BoG. Before Beerus and all of this God business, I have them both at around 90-100 million. Now they're almost 3 times stronger and have the God form to boost them above the upper-Z people.

 

[Future Warrior]

Good catch! I can't believe I missed that!

Still, Piccolo does say "Why is he doing that?" as I think he and everyone else expected him to go to Blue, Vegeta even comments on how Goku is conserving power still instead of going all out. He doesn't seem surprised by the fact Goku can use SSGod but rather that he's using that instead of Blue.

Or maybe I'm just really reaching right now

I do think Piccolo's performance should be taken into account when gauging Base Saiyan's power and absorbing God was the reason Goku's Base gets as strong as it does in the BoG movie & Super's anime. Later on when Goku fights Trunks, he even says Trunks is even stronger than Gohan was, a statement that doesn't mean much if Goku is already leagues above Gohan just in Base.

Vegeta is probably the only one aware of Goku being able to go SSG at will, since he trained with him and can probably to the same himself. Piccolo being able to hold his own against Frost is probably just stupid plot in order to make Piccolo somewhat relevant again (Even though he still had a minor role in the saga anyway).

Goku doesn't explicitly state how much stronger Trunks was compared to Kid Gohan. Him stating he surpassed him can easily mean he was 1,000,000x stronger than he was.

 

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta is probably the only one aware of Goku being able to go SSG at will, since he trained with him and can probably to the same himself. Piccolo being able to hold his own against Frost is probably just stupid plot in order to make Piccolo somewhat relevant again (Even though he still had a minor role in the saga anyway).

Goku doesn't explicitly state how much stronger Trunks was compared to Kid Gohan. Him stating he surpassed him can easily mean he was 1,000,000x stronger than he was.

I don't really think Toyotaro would have Piccolo fight someone who's God tier without mentioning some training or strength gains, even the anime has the very flimsy "he practiced with Gohan!" thing while Super just acts like this is roughly CG era Piccolo fighting Frost.

There's little point for Goku to use Gohan's CG self as any kind of benchmark if Trunks is 1,000,000x stronger than him which doesn't seem to be the case. Like I said earlier, Goku doesn't have God power absorbed since SSGod is its own form in the manga. If anything, Toyotaro using Gohan as a benchmark seems similar to how Vegeta used Gohan's CG self as a comparison point for Goku's power when he first went SS2.

 

[Papasmurf]

SSJG Goku's power is enough to easily dominate, but not defeat with a single shot, suppressed Hit, meaning it isn't anywhere near the gap that existed between SSJB Vegeta and Cabba. That alone makes me doubt that Hit did that humongous of a power up after accessing his full power, and given that in the manga continuity people have to be similar in strength for his time skip to even work, there's at best a 10-12x gap between suppressed Hit and SSJB Vegeta, and FP Hit is basically on par with red God Goku. For all that to work numerically, with SSJ Goku needing to actually predict Hit's moves ahead of time to cover for him stopping time, I can't in good conscience accept Goku's increase being that small from his BoG self.

I'm personally of the opinion that SSJG returning is Toyotaro's way of making Toriyama's footnotes work, considering that the DBS anime which goes by the same guidelines and has the same ending (Zeno appearing in the tournament) doesn't feature the form at all. The anime chose to use Kaioken to have Goku overshadow Vegeta and the manga has Goku conserving energy with SSJ and SSJG and SSJB being a stamina draining form to explain Vegeta's loss. Until it's confirmed that Toriyama specifically ordered them to use SSJG in one continuity and not the other, the SSJG doesn't necessitate not absorbing its power. Not to mention even in the anime it's the blue form that has Super Saiyan God's power and not the yellow form, yet their base forms clearly increased astronomically as seen by base Vegeta >>> SSJ3 Gotenks.

With all the suggestions in the actual manga itself (Hit being able to stop 10% Vegeta despite his timeskip not working on stronger opponents, Goku keeping up with that Hit, the apparently NOT unfathomable increase from SSJ --> SSJG for suppressed Hit to withstand a blast from Goku) and what little of Toriyama's statements that actually fit in the continuity of the series, I just can't buy them not increasing in power after gaining god forms. As pointed out by everyone, FnF still occurred in the manga continuity too, and unless it's somehow stated that base Goku vs. 4th form Freeza never happened in it, that's valid as it gets imo.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't really think Toyotaro would have Piccolo fight someone who's God tier without mentioning some training or strength gains, even the anime has the very flimsy "he practiced with Gohan!" thing while Super just acts like this is roughly CG era Piccolo fighting Frost.

There's little point for Goku to use Gohan's CG self as any kind of benchmark if Trunks is 1,000,000x stronger than him which doesn't seem to be the case. Like I said earlier, Goku doesn't have God power absorbed since SSGod is its own form in the manga. If anything, Toyotaro using Gohan as a benchmark seems similar to how Vegeta used Gohan's CG self as a comparison point for Goku's power when he first went SS2.

Which still doesn't make sense with your own power levels if Goku and Vegeta increased multi-fold since the BoG arc. If simply treating that like one of Super's fuck ups similar to Tagoma being stated to have surpassed the Ginyu Force like they were anything relevant at that point, it mostly makes sense aside from Piccolo's unexplained gains. But Super's had other ridiculous things happen all over while base/SSJ Goku against suppressed Hit (who's not far below 10% SSJB Vegeta) clearly demonstrates a power vastly above his previous self before gaining SSJG.

 

[Future Warrior]

I don't really think Toyotaro would have Piccolo fight someone who's God tier without mentioning some training or strength gains, even the anime has the very flimsy "he practiced with Gohan!" thing while Super just acts like this is roughly CG era Piccolo fighting Frost.

There's little point for Goku to use Gohan's CG self as any kind of benchmark if Trunks is 1,000,000x stronger than him which doesn't seem to be the case. Like I said earlier, Goku doesn't have God power absorbed since SSGod is its own form in the manga. If anything, Toyotaro using Gohan as a benchmark seems similar to how Vegeta used Gohan's CG self as a comparison point for Goku's power when he first went SS2.

Meh, the anime doesn't portray it any better. Piccolo training with a Gohan who is lower than the likes of Super Boo wouldn't get him anywhere near God tier, yet he did.

Goku mentions Kid Gohan because that was the strongest power ever felt when Future Trunks was actually present.

 

[ekrolo2]

ote]Meh, the anime doesn't portray it any better. Piccolo training with a Gohan who is lower than the likes of Super Boo wouldn't get him anywhere near God tier, yet he did.

Goku mentions Kid Gohan because that was the strongest power ever felt when Future Trunks was actually present.

I know, but the manga isn't run by the anime staff and clearly has better consistency when explaining things. Just look at the fact it wisely avoids the anime's stupid loop thing with Black and Zamasu with the simplest of fixes.

Goku's technically the strongest guy he can feel then and he doesn't tell Trunks "Wow! I can't believe you've managed to reach my level of power!" he specifically chooses Gohan as a relevant point of comparison for Trunks' comparable power to Goku's.

Which still doesn't make sense with your own power levels if Goku and Vegeta increased multi-fold since the BoG arc. If simply treating that like one of Super's fuck ups similar to Tagoma being stated to have surpassed the Ginyu Force like they were anything relevant at that point, it mostly makes sense aside from Piccolo's unexplained gains. But Super's had other ridiculous things happen all over while base/SSJ Goku against suppressed Hit (who's not far below 10% SSJB Vegeta) clearly demonstrates a power vastly above his previous self before gaining SSJG.

Goku and Vegeta have tripled their base power and have access to the God forms which give them high multipliers, its not like the anime where they get hundreds of thousands of times stronger (at least) in just Base then a few hundred or thousand more with SS1-3 then Blue.

I don't see why bringing in Tagoma is relevant to the manga since that didn't happen in it and I don't see how Goku in Base or SS is anywhere close to Vegeta's strength with a tenth of Blue. Characters can suppress their powers in multiple ways, like how Goku can suppress his strength to regular human levels in the Cell Games while being a Super Saiyan. Goku never breaks Beerus' big ball of doom in the manga, he simply reverts to Base after losing his recently acquired SSGod form and then Beerus leaves.

For specific numbers, here's how I see the Hit fight happening in terms of numbers.

Hit - 280 mill (vs Base Goku)
- 5.5 trill (vs tired Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta)
- 14 bill (vs Super Saiyan Goku)
- 28 trill (vs Super Saiyan God Goku, Max Power)

As for the FnF comment, Toyotaro never remade it for Super, opting instead to entirely skip it. Since he did his own BoG, I find it stupid to even count his F manga or the F film since both were made by Toriyama's movie script while Super is basically just Toyotaro/Toei working off of vague guidelines. Since Piccolo and Vegeta are aware of Goku having SSGod when he transforms against Hit, and its easy to assume Goku simply used that against Freeza then Blue against Golden.

 

[Papasmurf]

I'm not saying it's relevant to the manga since the FnF events were skipped. I'm saying the manga's equally fallible as the anime since Toriyama doesn't directly illustrate and write every event like the original manga, he merely has Toyotaro expand on his notes. So if the manga makes what appears to be a mistake in relation to its own established powers, we can scrutinize and use it as an example just like with the anime.

I'm aware that the base/SSJ Goku feats shown in the movie and anime aren't in the manga. But that's not to say he doesn't show greatly enhanced power in the manga from his previous self either, because Hit's timeskips won't work on people who are much stronger than him, so he's similar in power to 10% SSJB Vegeta, yet once Goku knew he could stop time for 0.1 seconds he could keep up with him in lower forms, despite needing to compensate for Hit having 0.1 seconds' head start on each of his attacks. And SSJG Goku dominates, yet doesn't outright eviscerate that same Hit with one blast while Vegeta did it with ease against SSJ Cabba. And Hit demonstrates his timeskip at full power works on SSJG, yet not on SSJB Goku, further accentuating the fact that 100% SSJB is >> Hit, yet 10% SSJB is not >> suppressed Hit.

None of that works if you're to assume they only had milder gains after the BoG saga. Unless you can explain that with Goku not fighting in SSJ in the BoG finale, this debate is good as done.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

I'm gonna start analyzing the manga when I get time.