Did the Z Senshi know 50% Goku wasn't his max?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He said something like "Show us what you can do". Seems more like about Vegeta wanted to see how much of a fight Goku would put against Cell, whose power was still unkown.

 

[SSJ2]

I dont think Piccolo being marginally ahead of 50% Goku is a big deal. I dont see why Trunks would be surprised by Goku's statement if he wasnt at least 50%.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

He said something like "Show us what you can do". Seems more like about Vegeta wanted to see how much of a fight Goku would put against Cell, whose power was still unkown.

He said show us what you can do though, not Cell. He was also confident in himself being the one to defeat Cell.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I dont think Piccolo being marginally ahead of 50% Goku is a big deal. I dont see why Trunks would be surprised by Goku's statement if he wasnt at least 50%.

Because Goku just smiled as if it were okay, or even a good thing.

I think if the purpose of scene had been to portray Piccolo as powerful, we'd have seen Trunks reaction to Piccolo's statement, not Goku's. That way he'd be surprised at PIccolo's powerlessness, not Goku's nonchalant attitude.

He said show us what you can do though, not Cell. He was also confident in himself being the one to defeat Cell.

"Show us what you can do [against Cell]". Goku is the only Z Fighter who hasn't fought Cell yet.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

I dont think Piccolo being marginally ahead of 50% Goku is a big deal. I dont see why Trunks would be surprised by Goku's statement if he wasnt at least 50%.

Because Goku just smiled as if it were okay, or even a good thing.

I think if the purpose of scene had been to portray Piccolo as powerful, we'd have seen Trunks reaction to Piccolo's statement, not Goku's. That way he'd be surprised at PIccolo's powerlessness, not Goku's nonchalant attitude.

He said show us what you can do though, not Cell. He was also confident in himself being the one to defeat Cell.

"Show us what you can do [against Cell]". Goku is the only Z Fighter who hasn't fought Cell yet.

I know but why would he need to know? He is going thinking he'll be the one to defeat Cell. To me at-least it seems Vegeta just wants to see what Goku is truly capable of before being to one to defeat Cell (he was that confident until Goku and Cell blew his expectations away).

 

[SSJ2]

@GSM, well Goku already established that he likely can’t beat Cell.. The Z Senshi are still expecting Goku to have a bit more in reserve, so Piccolo can still be ahead of 50% Goku, but behind his estimation of Goku’s full power. He may see it like this:

50% Goku: 50
Piccolo: 52-55
Hypothetical Goku: 65
Cell:70+

I don’t see this line of thought contradicting anything tbh. I also don’t have a problem with Piccolo being < 50% Goku. I just don’t know why Piccolo would even bring Cell into the equation while talking to Goku if he’s not even at half Goku level. We already know 50% Goku/hypothetical Goku can’t beat Cell, so why would Piccolo redundantly bring up Cell again if he’s below even that? Just how I’m seeing it right now.

 

[p123]

Expected Cell 135
Expected Goku 125
Vegeta 100


Probably something like that...

Expected Goku should be right around Post Kamehameha Goku.


Post Kamehameha Cell 130
Post Kamehameha Goku 125


Remember, Post Barrier Cell is still too much for Vegeta/Trunks to win against... They have to gang up on him.

If Cell lost any power from the barrier at all. He might not have...


Actual Levels...

Actual Cell 167.5
Actual Goku 150
Expected Cell 135
Post KHH Cell 130
Expected Goku 125
Post KHH Goku 125
Cell Jr 105
Vegeta 102.5
Trunks 100

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@GSM, well Goku already established that he likely can’t beat Cell.. The Z Senshi are still expecting Goku to have a bit more in reserve, so Piccolo can still be ahead of 50% Goku, but behind his estimation of Goku’s full power. He may see it like this:

50% Goku: 50
Piccolo: 52-55
Hypothetical Goku: 65
Cell:70+

I don’t see this line of thought contradicting anything tbh. I also don’t have a problem with Piccolo being < 50% Goku. I just don’t know why Piccolo would even bring Cell into the equation while talking to Goku if he’s not even at half Goku level. We already know 50% Goku/hypothetical Goku can’t beat Cell, so why would Piccolo redundantly bring up Cell again if he’s below even that? Just how I’m seeing it right now.

Sure, the problem is that I don't see anything requiring Piccolo to be so strong. The plot gives him absolutely zero spotlight, so we should go by common sense here, and it dictate he's not even Super Vegeta level. I think a better scaling would be like this:

50% Goku: 50
Expected Goku: 62.5
Expected Cell: 66
Vegeta/Trunks: 67.5

Piccolo's pretty weak... Super Vegeta is probably the highest he could be IMO.

 

[SSJ2]

This entire topic is conjecture based. There is no common sense answer. Given the second paragraph I wrote, that provides grounds for Piccolo being that strong. He doesn’t have to be, but he can be. What kind of spotlight was he going to get when there were 4 Saiyans that were far above him? I don’t see “spotlight” being relevant here tbh.

 

[p123]

A fatigued Mastered Super Saiyan could not survive against the Cell Junior. Piccolo did. Super Vegeta is a complete nothing at this point. He's the guy who got tanked by Warm Up Cell, remember? Warm Up Cell is probably a bit below fatigued Mastered Super Saiyan Goku...

Goku 150
Cell Juniors 105
Vegeta 102.5
Trunks 100
Piccolo 75
Goku 60
Warm Up Cell 50

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

A fatigued Mastered Super Saiyan could not survive against the Cell Junior.

Literally everybody survived the Cell Jr fight

 

[SSJ2]

Survive isn’t the best word but his point stands.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'll wait for P to elaborate what he means with "Survive" exactly, unless he's trying to tell me the Cell Jr killed Goku.

 

[p123]

Survive aka, not be KO'd.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So you're telling me Goku was KO'd?

Spoiler

You sure?

If trash powerless Goku is still conscious and earthlings weaker than Freeza are alive, then Piccolo standing against the Cell Jr doesn't mean they're close, unless you believe Goku is relative to Cell Jr too.

 

[Pyro]

Well, anyway, whether they expected more from Goku or not is irrelevant because it doesn't change much. We know they're all nothing to Goku's full power, which is mathematically twice his 50% power, which is what everyone was basing their estimations on. You can't do much in this situation, you fucking number nuts.

 

[p123]

Yea, that's generally what we consider a KO in the fighting world. Unable to rise to your feet and continue the fight. If this was a professional fight, Goku would have been finished via TKO.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

KO is an acronym for knock-out, that is the act of making someone unconscious...

Anyways, Goku is conscious. What is the gap, P?

 

[p123]

Cell Junior 105
Piccolo 75
Goku 60

Piccolo is getting his ass beat. Goku is just out of range to keep the fight standing...

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yes, they're all out of the fighting rage, but Goku is even farther than Piccolo.