Do you think Future Trunks vs Dabura (in both medias) just goes on to show that Dabura was really intended to be on Cell's level?

[Natasha Romanoff]

Don't you think this just goes on to tell us how much Trunks has progressed since the last time we saw him, putting him fighting against someone who is Cell tier in terms of power and showing us that Toriyama always intended Dabura to be on that level? Or why don't you think this is the case?

Of course, if you take Super (anime/manga) and the original manga as different things and that something that was writen years after can't change anything, then you can give your reasons as to why. I only want to know your reasons to all of this.

 

[Papasmurf]

I think Future Dabura was just stronger and that present Dabura was more or less on SSJ Gohan's level.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

But, doesn't make sense for Future Dabura to be stronger than his main timeline self considering that the androids 17/18 were weaker in the future.. Also, that main timeline Dabura was never interested on getting stronger as he considered himself the strongest in the universe.

I have two ways of viewing Dabura's strength in relation to Cell:

If Gohan was a SSJ: He'd be above Perfect Cell (vs Goku) level, but weaker than true Speed Cell, considering their respective performances against Gohan and how Cell fared better against a stronger Gohan than how Dabura did with a weaker Gohan.

If Gohan was a SSJ2: He'd definitely be above Full Power Cell level, but far weaker than Super Perfect Cell as Super Perfect Cell showed to be able to damage a better Gohan, while Dabura was unable to damage him and also Gohan broke his sword with mere brute strength.

Then, there's also the fact that Goku just puts into question whether Dabura was far stronger than what he imagined; as opposed as to say it so definitely.

Chapter: 455 (DBZ 261), P6.1-2
Context: as Dabra fights Gohan
Goku: “Magic, huh? [Dabra]’s way stronger than I thought, ain’t he?”
Vegeta: “Hmph…Even so, he’s not an opponent [he? we?] can’t win against. [Gohan]’s so pathetic…So much so that he was stronger as a brat…”
Goku: “He really did slack off!”

 

[Papasmurf]

Future Dabura was born and converted to Majin centuries before the timeline split. The future cyborgs were converted after. So the additional passage of time could simply have made him stronger.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

What's the proof of all of that? The anime it's pretty vague on that regard, as well as it were barely given any information and I can't find it in the manga. Just because time passes doesn't make someone stronger, not because times keeps passing it made Goku stronger in the Buu Saga while doing nothing.

 

[Animelover5487]

Future Dabura was born and converted to Majin centuries before the timeline split. The future cyborgs were converted after. So the additional passage of time could simply have made him stronger.

I don't see how that makes him any different than the present Dabura. The androids being weaker can be explained by Gero being aware of Goku's premature death, making it unnecessary for Gero to make any further upgrades to them.

With Dabura there is really little reason for him to be stronger. A centuries, possibly millenniums old demon lord is hardly going to get any benefit from a decade or two at most of minimum training, and given his arrogance, it's likely he didn't train at all.

 

[Papasmurf]

I don't see how that makes him any different than the present Dabura. The androids being weaker can be explained by Gero being aware of Goku's premature death, making it unnecessary for Gero to make any further upgrades to them.

With Dabura there is really little reason for him to be stronger. A centuries, possibly millenniums old demon lord is hardly going to get any benefit from a decade or two at most of minimum training, and given his arrogance, it's likely he didn't train at all.

It was stated that Babidi spent 10 yrs gathering the energy, so he probably engaged in many fights. By Super logic, that could make him a few times stronger.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Fuck you Kenshi I thought Paladin was back for a second

 

[Papasmurf]

Fuck you Kenshi I thought Paladin was back for a second

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

To be fair, Future Dabra’s feats are better than Present Dabra’s. Any SSJ2 would make short of work of Present, but Future actually requires Shin to hold him in place for Trunks to kill him.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

To be fair, Future Dabra’s feats are better than Present Dabra’s. Any SSJ2 would make short of work of Present, but Future actually requires Shin to hold him in place for Trunks to kill him.

In the manga, SSJ2 Trunks was still dominating him before of that. Of course, SSJ2 Vegeta, Goku or Kid Gohan would defeat Present Dabura without effort, but if Gohan was a SSJ2 it goes on to show that they are on par or in a similar level while being a piece of cake for anyone of them.

Also, Dabura was better against SSJ2 Trunks than what Perfect Cell was against SSJ2 Kid Gohan, who got severly damaged in two punches. Does this goes on to show that Dabura was actually stronger than Perfect Cell?

 

[Papasmurf]

Nah, Future > present Dabura

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

If Gohan was just a SSJ, that's definitely the conclusion.

 

[Papasmurf]

I believe Toriyama depicted him with an SSJ1 aura for a reason. The fiercer aura and accompanying lightning bolts were present in the Budokai, no reason for AT to omit them from SSJ2 Gohan.

 

[Animelover5487]

Why would Gohan hold back, especially since he was having so much trouble with Dabura that Vegeta was getting pissed off about the way Gohan was fighting and how rusty he got. That's why I can't buy that Gohan was only a SSJ1, then you factor in Goku comparing him to Cell. Even if he's only Perfect Cell level he would destroy SSJ Gohan but if he's SPC level then that justifies a rusty SSJ2 Gohan's difficulty with him.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

I'm not saying that Gohan was a SSJ2, but if it were for lighting or the design the argument lacks of sense:

Spoiler

SSJ2 Goku & Majin Vegeta lacks of lightning in the second part of this panel.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Why would Gohan hold back, especially since he was having so much trouble with Dabura that Vegeta was getting pissed off about the way Gohan was fighting and how rusty he got. That's why I can't buy that Gohan was only a SSJ1, then you factor in Goku comparing him to Cell. Even if he's only Perfect Cell level he would destroy SSJ Gohan but if he's SPC level then that justifies a rusty SSJ2 Gohan's difficulty with him.

If Dabura was SPC level, he would've defeated SSJ2 Gohan with ease. A single blast from Super Perfect Cell injured SSJ2 Kid Gohan heavily.

 

[Papasmurf]

I'm not saying that Gohan was a SSJ2, but if it were for lighting or design the argument lacks of sense:

Spoiler

View attachment 1959

SSJ2 Goku & Majin Vegeta lacks of lightning in the second part of this panel.

Vegeta and Goku only lack lightning in a couple of panels, and Vegeta could have gone back down to SSJ once Goku was out cold since there was no threat. Gohan never had lightning in any panel after the Budokai.

 

[Papasmurf]

Why would Gohan hold back, especially since he was having so much trouble with Dabura that Vegeta was getting pissed off about the way Gohan was fighting and how rusty he got. That's why I can't buy that Gohan was only a SSJ1, then you factor in Goku comparing him to Cell. Even if he's only Perfect Cell level he would destroy SSJ Gohan but if he's SPC level then that justifies a rusty SSJ2 Gohan's difficulty with him.

You can argue Goku was at first comparing Dabura to the Cell he fought 7 yrs ago, not FP PC or Zenkai PC. This fits in with a weakened Gohan being around his level. No matter what the case he isn't comparing Dabura to SPC who is closer to SSJ2 Kid Gohan than SSJ2 Teenaged Gohan and would beat the latter singled handedly.

 

[Natasha Romanoff]

Vegeta and Goku only lack lightning in a couple of panels, and Vegeta could have gone back down to SSJ once Goku was out cold since there was no threat. Gohan never had lightning in any panel after the Budokai.

There's no reason for that, once Vegeta ate the senzu he was searching for Majin Buu. Vegeta was actively a SSJ2 the whole time unless there's a statement saying his ki diminished (when there's none).