Do you think Future Trunks vs Dabura (in both medias) just goes on to show that Dabura was really intended to be on Cell's level?

Papasmurf

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As well as that we've seen how Goku had sparkier hair without electricity in the manga, so it's not an absolute requirement to have those traits.

Even then, the only way in which your argument can remotely make any sense is if we assume that Goku = Gohan in terms of appearance.

Goku only ever had the SSJ2-styled bangs when high-speed flight (or wind) was pushing his hair back or when he was SSJ2. I never said Gohan = Goku in appearance in either form.
This is where your argument falls, you have pretty much accepted in your argument that Toriyama is barely putting effort on detailed art, but also you are insinuating that he has to be strict when it comes to SSJ2. You have contradicted your entire argument and still keeps replying in an attempt to be right, thinking that your argument would somehow gain strength from doing that.

No, I didn't. I said AT in general puts less effort into his art in the Babidi section of the manga and onwards, but he's always pretty consistent about SSJ2s having lightning continuously even though there is less detail to his art than in previous sagas. Even in that panel you showed with Vegeta having a less pronounced aura, he has lightning all the same. Gohan never did while fighting Dabura or Boo, for hundreds of panels.
Even though, your premise has a lot of quantity when it comes to most of the panels it also lacks the quality needed to achieve to purpose of be truth.
I said 95% of panels show SSJ2s having lightning and that 0% of panels have a SSJ having lightning with the sole exception of Vegetto, and he only has lightning for one panel. You've never been able to contradict this. Either show me a consistent example of a number of panels drawn by Toriyama that show SSJ1s with consistent lightning or drop the argument. Even in those panels you posted of SSJ2s occasionally not having lightning drawn in, there's lightning in an adjacent panel and the ones without lightning are far few and between.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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No, I didn't. I said AT in general puts less effort into his art in the Babidi section of the manga and onwards, but he's always pretty consistent about SSJ2s having lightning continuously even though there is less detail to his art than in previous sagas. Even in that panel you showed with Vegeta having a less pronounced aura, he has lightning all the same. Gohan never did while fighting Dabura or Boo, for hundreds of panels.
Vegeta didn't have lightning for many panels but you came with headcanon such as he went SSJ because there was no threat but was searching for Majin Buu, SPC didn't have lightning during the beam struggle with Gohan, but obviously Cell had a far shorter appearance.
I said 95% of panels show SSJ2s having lightning and that 0% of panels have a SSJ having lightning with the sole exception of Vegetto, and he only has lightning for one panel. You've never been able to contradict this. Either show me a consistent example of a number of panels drawn by Toriyama that show SSJ1s with consistent lightning or drop the argument. Even in those panels you posted of SSJ2s occasionally not having lightning drawn in, there's lightning in an adjacent panel and the ones without lightning are far few and between.
Because objectively those are just your own stats of the things, and as well as have I brought you many examples in which they doesn't have an aura.

I don't know why you mean by "consistent", but I don't think Toriyama was pretty much focus his mind on lightning nor it was a rule implemented in the story that SSJ2 has to always have electricity or a SSJ can't have one; the only times in which the appearance of SSJ2 is really told about to the read is when they say that they didn't notice that much of a change. Anything more is simply headcanon or how us can think about what Toriyama intended.
 

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Vegeta didn't have lightning for many panels but you came with headcanon such as he went SSJ because there was no threat but was searching for Majin Buu,

Because his aura had clearly reverted to that of a regular SSJ. In some panels where he's standing in front of Majin Boo with no lightning, he still has the fiercer aura of SSJ2.
SPC didn't have lightning during the beam struggle with Gohan, but obviously Cell had a far shorter appearance.
The lightning disappeared only when he massively enlarged his aura in preparation for launching the KHH. This was intentional, to convey that he was giving off a ton of light. We don't see lightning engulfing Goku during his huge light burst that killed Yakon either.
Because objectively those are just your own stats of the things, and as well as have I brought you many examples in which they doesn't have an aura.
Which are such a small portion of the total number of panels in which SSJ2s are depicted that they are the clear outlier. Again, show me a consistent example (~ chapter long or more) of SSJ2s or SSJ3s lacking lightning entirely, in chapters in which they are the star character and not just some dude occasionally shown in the background. Other than Vegetto there is no SSJ with lightning, and when there is lightning it's only for one panel, so that the reader can grasp just how powerful this regular Super Saiyan is. In the entire run of the original manga there hasn't been the inverse - SSJ2/SSJ3 characters lacking lightning for an entire chapter or more.
I don't know why you mean by "consistent", but I don't think Toriyama was pretty much focus his mind on lightning nor it was a rule implemented in the story that SSJ2 has to always have electricity or a SSJ can't have one; the only times in which the appearance of SSJ2 is really told about to the read is when they say that they didn't notice that much of a change. Anything more is simply headcanon or how us can think about what Toriyama intended.
Toriyama clearly intended for SSJ2 to have traits to distinguish it from the previous form, which can be seen in Goku and Gohan even without lightning unless you're blind. Goku's bangs covering the forehead all stick up and his hair becomes more wild and rigid. Gohan's hair which was only slightly spiked up from his regular form all sticks up and becomes wilder other than the one covering his forehead, not to mention both of them have lightning constantly surrounding their auras and the auras themselves become far more pronounced. In no instance in any Toriyama-drawn manga (until the gag manga Neko Majin) did any regular SSJ have any of these traits for longer than one lone panel. And Kuririn's shock to seeing SSJ2 Gohan (after having already seen the full power of his regular SSJ form) shows that the form's difference in power and aura intensity is immediately noticeable, Babidi just can't sense Ki because he's a retard.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Because his aura had clearly reverted to that of a regular SSJ. In some panels where he's standing in front of Majin Boo with no lightning, he still has the fiercer aura of SSJ2.
Ah yes, Vegeta also gone back to SSJ to knock back Trunks and Goten, even though, Majin Buu could've appeared at any point and had already massacred him, Vegeta only went SSJ2 against Kid Buu in the beginning when he was throwing blasts at him and went SSJ back even though he has to resist his punches and survive, the lack of lightning is absolute evidence.
The lightning disappeared only when he massively enlarged his aura in preparation for launching the KHH. This was intentional, to convey that he was giving off a ton of light.
This is intellectualy dishonest at its best, Cell didn't have electricity during the whole beam struggle since it began to its end.
Which are such a small portion of the total number of panels in which SSJ2s are depicted that they are the clear outlier. Again, show me a consistent example (~ chapter long or more) of SSJ2s or SSJ3s lacking lightning entirely, in chapters in which they are the star character and not just some dude occasionally shown in the background. Other than Vegetto there is no SSJ with lightning, and when there is lightning it's only for one panel, so that the reader can grasp just how powerful this regular Super Saiyan is. In the entire run of the original manga there hasn't been the inverse - SSJ2/SSJ3 characters lacking lightning for an entire chapter or more.
Gohan didn't have lightning during the whole beam struggle since it ever began to its end with Cell, obviously because I can't post that much images I can't show it.
Toriyama clearly intended for SSJ2 to have traits to distinguish it from the previous form, which can be seen in Goku and Gohan even without lightning unless you're blind. Goku's bangs covering the forehead all stick up and his hair becomes more wild and rigid. Gohan's hair which was only slightly spiked up from his regular form all sticks up and becomes wilder other than the one covering his forehead, not to mention both of them have lightning constantly surrounding their auras and the auras themselves become far more pronounced. In no instance in any Toriyama-drawn manga (until the gag manga Neko Majin) did any regular SSJ have any of these traits for longer than one lone panel. And Kuririn's shock to seeing SSJ2 Gohan (after having already seen the full power of his regular SSJ form) shows that the form's difference in power and aura intensity is immediately noticeable, Babidi just can't sense Ki because he's a retard.
Ah yes, I win the argument because I called the characters retard and I give an "hahaha" hurr durr, immaturity at its best you reflects here.

I don't know what kind of requirement it is for someone to need to be able to sense ki to realize that someone has changed appearance-wise, seriously. Even Bulma could tell how much Trunks changed after his training in the rosat, despite of the fact that she can't sense ki.

Ah yes, even though, even in Super, Beerus asks himself whether SSJ2 Goku changed that much or not in relation to his SSJ and how Goku Black/Zamasu talks about SSJ2 Goku as Super Saiyan Goku, even though it is visibly a SSJ2. Everyone is idiotic hurr durr.
 

Dagon

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Future Dabura > Present Dabura. Doesn't matter if you think he's the type to train. If that's where the feats put him, it is what it is.

I'm not saying that Gohan was a SSJ2, but if it were for lighting or the design the argument lacks of sense:


SSJ2 Goku & Majin Vegeta lacks of lightning in the second part of this panel.
Nitpicking.
 

Papasmurf

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Future Dabura > Present Dabura. Doesn't matter if you think he's the type to train. If that's where the feats put him, it is what it is.

Yup. Like I said, Babidi spent 10 years gathering the energy which can easily mean Dabura engaged in a number of fights. It isn't unexplainable nor inexplicable.
Nitpicking.
He's been doing this the entire debate. I've grown weary of it.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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@Kenshi
Except that Dabura is not a saiyan which means that he doesn't have zenkais neither got stronger through fighting alone.

Lol, you gotta have a pretty low IQ level to assume things about other ones that you don't even know XD.
 

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@Kenshi
Except that Dabura is not a saiyan which means that he doesn't have zenkais neither got stronger through fighting alone.
Plenty of characters have gotten stronger just from fighting. Kuririn did so after his potential unlock on Namek for instance.
Lol, you gotta have a pretty low IQ level to assume things about other ones that you don't even know XD.
Nobody here has a lower IQ than you, I'll guarantee that. Regardless, one shouldn't stoop to insulting other people's intelligence in a civil and adult debate. If that's what you need to resort to, you've already lost. But I guess old habits die hard, eh Tosh?
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Plenty of characters have gotten stronger just from fighting. Kuririn did so after his potential unlock on Namek for instance.
Yes, because, his full potential was unlocked, we can't tell for sure if he actually made himself stronger as the only useful thing he did was with the Kienzan and heavily damaging a suppressed Vegeta, while acknowledging that he can't damage him while not being suppressed.
Nobody here has a lower IQ than you, I'll guarantee that. Regardless, one shouldn't stoop to insulting other people's intelligence in a civil and adult debate. If that's what you need to resort to, you've already lost.
The same can be said about not making random accusations about people, but exactly, what disturbs your mind about me? I already gave you my argument, so I hadn't lost, yet and still have arguments, but if you want to not answer me again because you know you stand no chance and you yourself humiliated your intelligence, then, I'm fine with that.
 

Papasmurf

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Yes, because, his full potential was unlocked, we can't tell for sure if he actually made himself stronger as the only useful thing he did was with the Kienzan and heavily damaging a suppressed Vegeta, while acknowledging that he can't damage him while not being suppressed.

Vegeta openly said Kuririn and Gohan's powers were growing steadily. And we know this is the case because he fared far better against Ginyu-in-Goku whose power is over 20,000 than against Gurd, while he was only in the 10,000s range straight after his potential unlock. He'd be tits on a bull against Ginyu-Goku at his initial post-unlock level.

Also, other characters have gotten inexplicably stronger without explanation, for example DBS Kibito. So there is precedent for stuff like this.
The same can be said about not making random accusations about people, but exactly, what disturbs your mind about me? I already gave you my argument, so I hadn't lost, yet and still have arguments, but if you want to not answer me again because you know you stand no chance and you yourself humiliated your intelligence, then, I'm fine with that.
What accusations? You've been resorting to whataboutism and nitpicking random scattered panels this entire debate, and a couple posts ago you resorted to saying your opponents have low IQs. I've only insulted Babidi, the fictional character, because he has shown numerous signs of stupidity. You're hardly one to talk about bad debating. But let's drop it. It's clear that SSJ2/SSJ3 characters usually have lightning in the majority of panels they're depicted in, which you've failed to disprove. Future Dabura has better feats than his past self, and nothing indicates Gohan has to be SSJ2 other than the logical assumption that he must use FP.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Gohan is a hybrid half saiyan, so? Krillin could pretty much have been increasing his power, so that's not an indication. Lol, Gohan or Krillin could've defeated him easily without his ability to manipulate time. Krillin wasn't fighting alone with him, so that's not an argument.
What accusations? You've been resorting to whataboutism and nitpicking random scattered panels this entire debate, and a couple posts ago you resorted to saying your opponents have low IQs. I've only insulted Babidi, the fictional character, because he has shown numerous signs of stupidity. You're hardly one to talk about bad debating. But let's drop it. It's clear that SSJ2/SSJ3 characters usually have lightning in the majority of panels they're depicted in, which you've failed to disprove. Future Dabura has better feats than his past self, and nothing indicates Gohan has to be SSJ2 other than the logical assumption that he must use FP.
Assuming my gender was pretty much one and then accuse me of being Tosh when that name didn't even came to my mind for a very long time. No, not everyone has a low IQ, I just accused you that you gotta have one due to your behavior, because assuming things without knowing is something low IQ people do. I don't really care about you insulting Babidi, yes he is stupid, so what? You are recurring to strawman attacking directly the character I'm using to support my argument.

Ah yes, Cell and Kid Gohan, as well as Goku and Vegeta always have lightning, Vegetto have lightning so he is a SSJ2.
 
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Dagon

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@Kenshi
Except that Dabura is not a saiyan which means that he doesn't have zenkais neither got stronger through fighting alone.

Lol, you gotta have a pretty low IQ level to assume things about other ones that you don't even know XD.
Fighting is equivalent to training. You burn calories in a kickboxing gym as well as Planet Fitness.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Fighting is equivalent to training. You burn calories in a kickboxing gym as well as Planet Fitness.
Aside from real life logic, which doesn't seem to operate with Dragon Ball. What thing other than adapting ability can make someone stronger? Did Freeza through fighting got stronger? Android 17 was getting stronger while fighting Piccolo or visceversa?
 

Dagon

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Aside from real life logic, which doesn't seem to operate with Dragon Ball. What thing other than adapting ability can make someone stronger? Did Freeza through fighting got stronger? Android 17 was getting stronger while fighting Piccolo or visceversa?
Never said they had to increase mid-battle. They could increase in-between battles, after recovery.
 

Natasha Romanoff

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Never said they had to increase mid-battle. They could increase in-between battles, after recovery.
So, everyone must have the zenkai ability, I guess, it's no longer saiyan-exclusive as it said in the story, even though, after the Freeza saga, not even in saiyans that seems to be the case and/or doesn't increase that much. Buu didn't get stronger after recovering from Gotenks, Gohan or Vegetto.

@GreatSaiyaman123

Piccolo could reach or even surpass the thousands without problems. His battle power was previously 408.
 

Dagon

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So, everyone must have the zenkai ability, I guess, it's no longer saiyan-exclusive as it said in the story, even though, after the Freeza saga, not even in saiyans that seems to be the case and/or doesn't increase that much. Buu didn't get stronger after recovering from Gotenks, Gohan or Vegetto.

@GreatSaiyaman123

Piccolo could reach or even surpass the thousands without problems. His battle power was previously 408.
It's not a zenkai to become stronger or fitter after physical exertion. A fight is physical exertion. Saiyans just have the near death zenkai and they sometimes gain more per fight than others.

Mr. Buu in DBS became base Goku's level after training for a few hours with Mr. Satan throwing rocks for Buu to punch. So Buu can become strong quickly, but this was good Buu so maybe it was different for the other Buus.
 

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@Dagon

Keyword: training

Piccolo after being healed by Dende states that he is enough to defeat Vegeta (something which he already was), but not enough for Freeza. Where is the big improvement/getting stronger after recovery?
 

Dagon

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@Dagon

Keyword: training

Piccolo after being healed by Dende states that he is enough to defeat Vegeta (something which he already was), but not enough for Freeza. Where is the big improvement/getting stronger after recovery?
Buu punching rocks is paltry in comparison to the battles he's had before. The point is he got stronger from exertion.

I never said each battle gives a big improvement.
 
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