Dragon Ball Discussion

[p123]

Well that's what I'm saying... The rage boost explains a lot of this.

I have Vegeta surpassing Kid Gohan's level, but not his enraged level.

Super Saiyan 2 Goku/Majin Vegeta 800,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan (Enraged) 750,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta 650,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Kid Gohan (Normal, Unseen) 600,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan 500,000,000,000

This is how I have it. I like how it really gives credit to Vegeta's boasting and gives Goku a real increase for 7 years of hard training in OtherWorld of all places and training with 2 forms on top of that. I mean damn, if he can't squeeze out one more 2x boost with all of that, what gives?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I can't accept the rage boost theory for some reason. Perhaps because it's complicated.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I need feedback from my good homies on my latest post to VOR.

 

[ahill1]

I agree with your points, honestly and good catch on the SEG not noticing a power increase for Goku during his three years of training for the 22nd Budokai. I think he could argue that the Daizenshuu's information about the device being used to kill the androids isn't that valid due to Daiz's questionable timeline where there was a CGs with Trunks absent but that's about it. Since he is a Daiz homer that should be enough to convince him.

Even if he insists Trunks was the one who killed the androids, may be worth saying that Cell didn't specify when Trunks killed the androids. For all we know he could have killed them after returning from the timeline he supposedly visited, to which he could have been already strong enough to deal with them on his own. I dunno.

Like freezamite, he will probably raise the point about Trunks not knowing where the device could be found since he didn't know about the underground laboratory until Cell mentioned it... but honestly Trunks being the responsible for the androids' death in another timeline isn't even close to imply he was stronger than the androids from my pov, specially when we have Cell stating Piccolo is the only one who can fight them, and this latter should only have knowledge about the androids from his timeline. Maybe that won't matter with him since he thinks Gero's data isn't accurate.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Thanks, ahill. You know I value your opinion on things like this. I'm honestly not that knowledgeable when it comes to Dragon Ball, but I thought it was odd that his 22nd Budokai power-up was nowhere to be found. Goku had definitely gotten way stronger from that training. I know he might say all Goku improved was his skill, but we know it's more than that.

 

[Papasmurf]

Him not improving makes no sense, considering Roshi noted an improvement even in his intial self from when he battled Chappa let alone his other power levels after that.

 

[ahill1]

Thanks, ahill. You know I value your opinion on things like this. I'm honestly not that knowledgeable when it comes to Dragon Ball, but I thought it was odd that his 22nd Budokai power-up was nowhere to be found. Goku had definitely gotten way stronger from that training. I know he might say all Goku improved was his skill, but we know it's more than that.

Yeah, like Kenshi stated Roshi was already impressed about how fast Goku was as soon as he threw the first punch in the batte against Chappa:

Spoiler

Not only that, but Roshi was initially confident fighting Goku knowing he had been training for three years, yet thought things might be looking bad right after Goku's fight against Chappa-o, a fight we know Goku didn't show anywhere near to his true power:

Spoiler

Spoiler

Roshin even stated he is eager to see how much Goku has improved and yet he looks rather surprised at Goku after the end of the first fight.

Kame-Sen'nin even stated Goku gets bigger and bigger every time he sees him and that he has a feeling his position has now vanished... the same Kame Sennin who previously stated he can't stand losing to one of his disciples:


Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”


Although I am even predicting him using the "he 'might' be strong enough to defeat Tao Pai Pai" to try and discredit Goku's gains lol. It's clear though for anyone reading the 22nd Budokai with a clear mind that the "he 'might' be strong enough to defeat Tao" is a BS statement given how a Goku with even less power than the one who faced Chappa-o could outclass him.

 

[ahill1]

Damn, VOR replied:

http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t2282800-how-big-was-gap-between-trunks-namek-goku/13.htm

 

[Evil Vegeta]

The thing with VOR is that he just sees the story entirely different than us. He believes most of us are obsessed with the power aspect, but I don't really see why. He's the first person I've ever seen who believed Future Gohan lost to #17 during the previous yr because of inadequate skill. He doesn't even think Gohan gained any power from his yr of training. Just better prowess to fight against the Androids.

 

[SSJ2]

Honestly he seems as bad as Tosh in regards to thinking that he's never wrong. I don't know how you can debate someone who clearly won't change their views. That is no disrespect to you, it just seems futile to talk to people like that..

 

[SIAD]

I need feedback from my good homies on my latest post to VOR.

Here explain the difference of power of Goku after training during those 3 years for TB22.

http://dbzeta.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5042

As for the Timeline that we speculate that I travel the Trunks of the Cell Timeline, I think it would not be so strange to find the plans, since in that Timeline no "Cell" arrived and perfectly the events in that Timeline would have been a bit different from that of the Main Timeline. Then that Trunks of the Cell Timeline, eliminated the Androids from their Line with the device, then spent 3 years and Cell eliminated it and for some strange reason traveled to a past even more past (Main Timeline).

  It sounds tragic to say it but Cell was the creator of the Main Timeline.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The thing with VOR is that he just sees the story entirely different than us. He believes most of us are obsessed with the power aspect, but I don't really see why. He's the first person I've ever seen who believed Future Gohan lost to #17 during the previous yr because of inadequate skill. He doesn't even think Gohan gained any power from his yr of training. Just better prowess to fight against the Androids.

I find funny how he's the polar opposite of what he calls us. He talks like power is a complete non factor in a fight, only skill is.

Him not improving makes no sense, considering Roshi noted an improvement even in his intial self from when he battled Chappa let alone his other power levels after that.

I wouldn't be surprised if he actually said it's all skill. He earlier said that Kid Future Trunks isn't leagues below Adult Future Trunks and Gohan only manhandled him due to skill.

 

[ahill1]

Honestly he seems as bad as Toshit in regards to thinking that he's never wrong. I don't know how you can debate someone who clearly won't change their views. That is no disrespect to you, it just seems futile to talk to people like that..

Well, I don't think it's futile. He is arrogant and all, but he has already conceded some things before. The worst thing is seeing you disagree with the person and yet not exposing why you disagree only because it's him... we are here to debate, regardless of the person.

 

[SSJ2]

You can waste your own time then lmao

 

[Evil Vegeta]

I do it for the people. My homies keep me fighting.

I know VOR won't change his mind. I've debated with him enough to know that. At this point, I just want to focus on my own consistency in countering his points.

Personally, I don't believe any of my points are outlandish. He said a page back that I likely didn't believe what I was saying, but that's definitely not the case.

What do you guys think about Freeza's Ginyu statement in comparison to Krillin's Cell statement? They both seem like standalone comparisons to me.

 

[ahill1]

I do it for the people. My homies keep me fighting.

I know VOR won't change his mind. I've debated with him enough to know that. At this point, I just want to focus on my own consistency in countering his points.

Personally, I don't believe any of my points are outlandish. He said a page back that I likely didn't believe what I was saying, but that's definitely not the case.

What do you guys think about Freeza's Ginyu statement in comparison to Krillin's Cell statement? They both seem like standalone comparisons to me.

Yeah, I pretty much agree with the idea of Kuririn paving the way for Cell as the next big villain, hence why he is singled out in the comparison and the androids aren't mentioned.

I always found the Ginyu's statement kind of weird, but an in universe explanation (that doesn't rely on targeting Toriyama's writing) could be that Freeza has a higher consideration for Ginyu than to Vegeta and Piccolo, I guess. But yeah, I think the Ginyu's example is a good one to counter the Cell-Freeza comparison, as we know both Freeza and Ginyu have been far surpassed by then.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

They're pretty much the same statement. Both are trying to say this new character is even stronger than the former bad guy, but say so in a awkward way that implies the new character is the first person to surpass the bad guy. Both statements could be retcons as well.

 

[Evil Vegeta]

Well, looks like I made an accurate comparison.

I wonder if VOR will change the meaning of the statement.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea, I mean I'm not trying to discredit what you're doing man. Mad respect to people like you and ahill who can go at length with someone like that. I certainly can't.

Having watched that guy for over 5 years, I just know I will be wasting my effort on him. If he wants to act like an arrogant dipshit then I will simply discuss with other people who are more fun to discuss with.

 

[p123]

How is 17 supposed to one shot Trunks unless the Androids are stupidly more powerful than the Super Saiyans? 18 tanks the sword attack too.