Dragon Ball Discussion

[p123]

(Cell > Light Grenade) > (Super Saiyan Goku > Death Beam) > (Raditz > Kamehameha)

Damn, this is getting to be some high level shit now. Comparing ki blast defense is super high level. Great way to troll and destroy people's list, making them have to start over from scratch.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Not if the "Gaps are inconsistent" is summoned

 

[p123]

Sure, but if they push that too much, tell them their list should be just like this...

Freeza 150,000,000
Perfect Cell 151,000,000
Majin Buu 152,000,000

Why bother to do gaps at all if their is no consistency to them?

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, i agree. Ignoring gaps kill the point of doing power levels on the first place.

P, how do you think Goku vs death beam compares to Vegeta on 19/Cell's punch?

 

[p123]

Oh that's a good one. Should be somewhat similar. I'd say Goku vs Death Beam is a bigger gap though for sure...

The Death Beam doesn't seem to be as strong as 70% Freeza's Kiai, so it limits what a Death Beam is capable of. Also, Freeza vs Goku's first trade off shows that Goku can deflect the death beams rather easily with a decent sized gap, but not tremendous.

I don't think Death Beam is anymore than a 1.2x boost really. It's claim to fame is the speed in which it can be delivered I believe. Most ki blasts require charge up time, but this seems damn near instant.

 

[p123]

One thing that I would like to mention, is the storyline suggestion about some of the Buu saga powers. Goku and Vegeta for instance or suggested to be Mega powerful. Yet Goku is barely be on with Gohan's power was 7 years ago and Vegeta is somehow still a good margin below what Gohan showed.

How can this be? How can Goku and Vegeta power up majorly yet still not be way above Gohan? The only answer here is the rage boost, nothing else makes sense.

My levels account for Goku nearly doubling his power and Vegeta actually being a bit stronger than Kid Gohan was not including the rage boost. I think this is the best balance of showing Goku and Vegeta's progression why Lawson paying respect to Gohan's impressive power seven years ago.

 

[SSJ2]

Goku implied in the Cell arc that he had already taken himself to his absolute limits by not re-entering the RoSaT. It's likely Vegeta also approached his personal limits after his second RoSaT trip. For Vegeta especially, just entering the same realm as Kid Gohan's power is a huge increase imo. He was like half his power or less during the Cell Games, and that was him a his limits. To further break those limits is impressive in itself, so I don't mind the "small" gains they made over the 7 years.

 

[p123]

Show me your numbers here's mine


Goku Buu. 320
Vegeta Buu 260
Kid Gohan 240
Teen Gohan 200
Goku Cell 180
Vegeta Cell 125

This is Super Saiyan only.

I think Vegeta and Goku acquiring new forms and doubling their power and seven years is pretty damn Fair

 

[SSJ2]

Roughly... (don't grill me on %s old man)

Goku Buu. 160
Vegeta Buu 130
Kid Gohan 140
Teen Gohan 110
Goku Cell 100
Vegeta Cell 66

Vegeta nearly doubles his power. Goku still makes a decent enough increase imo.

I view their main increases as their new SSJ forms. Vegeta gained SSJ2, Goku gained 2 and 3. They focused on obtaining new forms instead of further maxing out SSJ, as they were already near their limits come Cell Games. I think these numbers are fair.

 

[p123]

Those are totally fine, they are great even.

But I'm going with the rage boost thing and you know what that entails.

 

[SSJ2]

Yea I got you. That's something I may toy around with when I get deeper into my BP list.. My perceptions on many topics have changed, and I'm much more open minded these days to different theories.

 

[p123]

Me too. I'm trying out things this time I wouldn't have normally have done.

You know what always got to me? Super Saiyan Kid Gohan never feels like some definitive mark of power. He doesn't feel very strong. I rather like Goku being 75% of him at the Cell Game. I just don't consider SSJ Kid Gohan a powerhouse while I consider Ssj2 Kid Gohan a power house.

Ssj Goku Buu should be a monster, but his Ssj2 power is only a bit above Gohan. It's all a matter of taste, but I always had that feeling even if I didn't believe in the rage boost.

Vegeta feels strong in the Buu Saga too. Super Saiyan Vegeta.

 

[SSJ2]

Pretty well the main reason that I have Gohan so strong is that Cell (1.1-1.15x Goku in my books), had thought he killed Gohan with an attack, and Gohan essentially "tanked" the attack, taking no damage. For Cell himself to have thought he put enough force to kill Gohan into the attack, and Gohan walked away completely unscathed, barring cosmetic damage, I view that as a big gap. 75% is probably the lowest I can see between Goku and Gohan tbh.

 

[p123]

How much is Cell's speed up?

 

[SSJ2]

Not sure. That's one I'm always on the fence with. He demonstrated enough speed/power to completely crush Gohan' s spirit and keep him pinned to the ground while his friends were getting mucked by the Cell Juniors. I think he could be even a bit above SSJ Gohan.

 

[p123]

You are going to make Cells speed up more powerful than some big power up scenes?

Why doesn't Cell have to power up to access such a large advantage while everyone else does?

 

[SSJ2]

It's really not a huge increase imo. He'd be like 150 on my list of numbers with his upped speed. Just enough to crush the young Gohan's spirit and make the situation seem hopeless.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Boo Goku: 200
Boo Vegeta/CG Gohan: 160
Boo Gohan: 135
CG Goku: 120
CG Vegeta: 75

I like to think due to being on a dead body, Goku did not had the same limitations as he had after he left the Rosat. Had he trained on earth he wouldn't be much stronger than his CG self IMO.

 

[p123]

You have Kid Gohan too weak in comparison to Goku/Majin Vegeta. Piccolo says only that Majin Vegeta is perhaps stronger than Kid Gohan. Kid Gohan is within rivaling range of Majin Vegeta. 88% gap is the most I'd do personally. I go much closer...

Anyway...

I just have a hard time thinking that the gap between Goku and Gohan as Super Saiyans at the Cell Game is going to take Goku 7 years to barely surpass. I mean, they weren't even suggested to be all that different. Cell admits Gohan is stronger than Goku, but not so much that he wouldn't rather face Goku again. I mean, Kid Gohan's Super Saiyan power seems underwhelming.

Just can't imagine Goku considering this level some sort of a wall that cannot be reached. I think Goku blows past that level handily. I have Super Saiyan Goku capable of taking on 2 Super Saiyan Kid Gohans and holding his own against them, possibly winning. I think that makes more sense to me.

But it all comes down to if you believe in the rage boost. Which has the entire manga backing it up imo.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Vegeta shows no doubtfulness when he admits Goku is around Kid Gohan and Vegeta implies multiple times he's around Kid Gohan, so i find Piccolo's statement doubtful.