Dragon Ball Reread

[ahill1]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Would you say that the Saiyans arc was better than Freeza's one?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Definitely. Far more consistent, greater amount of stakes, the battle injuries/stamina loss had far more weight to them and Piccolo's character arc there is a contender amongst the franchise's best. That's not to say the Freeza Arc lacks highlights on par with it such as Vegeta's strategy in the ship or the events within SSJ Goku VS Freeza, but the Saiyan Arc has far less flaws.

 

[SSJ2]

The Saiyan Arc is good, but it doesn't have Appule and Orlen.

 

[ahill1]

I think Freeza killed Appule in the anime rather than Vegeta like in the manga. He died in a flattering manner, requiring 2 of the strongest of the arc to kill him.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I think Freeza killed Appule in the anime rather than Vegeta like in the manga. He died in a flattering manner, requiring 2 of the strongest of the arc to kill him.

He was still killed by Vegeta in the anime, the only difference being he wasn't vaporised. It was Orlen who was killed by Freeza in the anime.

 

[ahill1]

Oh I see. The fact that in the anime Orlen goes to a Namekian village and see it all destroyed similarly to Appule in the manga had me confused.

 

[SSJ2]

Is Orlen by default >>> the Namekian super warrior in DBS? The Namekians felt Orlen’s power but neglected to fuse. They knew it was a lost cause.

 

[Papasmurf]

Definitely. Far more consistent, greater amount of stakes, the battle injuries/stamina loss had far more weight to them and Piccolo's character arc there is a contender amongst the franchise's best. That's not to say the Freeza Arc lacks highlights on par with it such as Vegeta's strategy in the ship or the events within SSJ Goku VS Freeza, but the Saiyan Arc has far less flaws.

How does the Saiyan arc have greater stakes than Freeza's arc? I'm genuinely confused on that one, seeing as aside from Piccolo's death rendering the Earth DBs inert (which Kuririn already had correctly guessed wouldn't be permanent, seeing as there was another set on Namek), the Saiyan conflict was basically confined to Earth while Freeza threatened the cosmos.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Freeza Arc has greater stakes in terms of the scope of the conflict, but as far as the internal focus of it goes, the Saiyan Arc has more due to the greater limitations for plot armour. As you said, Piccolo's death made the Dragon Balls inert and along with that, you had things such as the limited amount of Senzu or Goku's uses of Kaioken constantly being life-risking moves. I guess tension may have been a more appropriate description, however.

 

[Papasmurf]

Senzus were also limited on Namek and Dende was quickly killed as soon as Freeza noticed him (not to mention we didn't know he had this ability until halfway through the 2nd/3rd form Freeza fight), so I don't think that sapped the tension at all. Freeza arc is the only arc where the planet became a death trap, as well, so there's that too. I'd call the Boo arc probably the most tension-lacking arc due to two+ characters on the good side (Galu, Kibito) possessing teleportation and the constant reassurance that they can just abused the Dragon Balls, in spite of the arc's massive death count and Boo's power.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Indeed they were, but as you said, there were still more healing options available such as Dende and the healing tank. Stamina also wasn't as major an issue as in the Saiyan Arc. During events such as the Vegeta fight, you could see how both sides both had their stamina slowly chipped away as injuries remained mostly consistent. Meanwhile on Namek, you have Freeza basically taking a Full Restore every time he transformed and the same with Galu's SSJ transformation, with the most stamina played into the battle was Goku being close to out of Ki after Kaioken x20.
I wouldn't say the Freeza Arc is without tension. It certainly has some of the most intense segments of the franchise, but I'd say the Saiyan Arc has more of a consistently tense atmosphere throughout.

 

[Papasmurf]

Invisible Senzus were indeed the thing that ruined the ToP the most imo, even more than Jiren's stale character or the #17 wanking. I wouldn't say the healing haxes were that bad in the Freeza arc though, seeing as the healing tank was only used once on the heroes (seeing as Vegeta was still a villain when Freeza healed him) and Piccolo didn't at least receive an asspull pseudo-zenkai like post-Reacoom Kuririn from being healed by Dende. Freeza recovering after transforming also didn't matter much in the long run, since he was only ever damaged enough in 2nd form for the healing haxes to matter in the slightest (aside from his tail being intact when he went into his true form).

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

The last page. Cannibal?

 

[SSJ2]

Goku isn't human so it technically wouldn't be cannibalism

 

[ahill1]

Have finished the Cell arc. The arc had some good plus, as reuniting all the Earthlings again without their contribution seeming like an assoull like Roshi at the ToP, with it remaining a good screen time within their capacities. Cell saying that Trunks will be killed by him like the Trunks from his future was also a good foreshadowing and nice play by Toriyama with having Trunks being indeed killed by Cell, and then Trunks kinda "revenging" on Cell by killing him on his time being a good turn of events and nicely done when you think about it. Gohan finally taking on the protector of Earth's role, with it being already foreshadowed before by him being stated to pack way more potential than the rest of the cast made for an ending, in a way, more satisfying than in the arc before, and seeing Vegeta's development in regards to his feeling towards Trunks and Bulma, with him initially not even trying to save them from Gero's attack was nicely done. I dislike how the pacifist agenda was pushed into Gohan at the CGs, to the point he was holding back from snapping even subconsciously, but I think that you can say, much like in Goku's case, that the aging might have changed his operation process a little. Some nice lines, like Piccolo's in regards to the attainment of the SSJ having changed Vegeta's behavior, making him to regain his confidence, might also explain his heightened confidence there in contrast with his more pragmatic self at the Freeza arc. I dislike somehow though how the end of the conflict could be completely avoided if Vegeta put aside this side of him though, and the ENTIRE conflict could have avoided if Goku followed Bulma's advise and killed Gero. This takes a little away from the whole conflict and turns Goku's friends into less of heroes that we should all cheer up. But overall, I didn't find it a bad arc.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I dislike how the pacifist agenda was pushed into Gohan at the CGs, to the point he was holding back from snapping even subconsciously, but I think that you can say, much like in Goku's case, that the aging might have changed his operation process a little.

As you said, it's most likely to do with his increase in age and maturity. Whilst I used to point to him killing the Freeza soldier as contradicting this, there is an important difference in context as Gohan was still in the formative years in which children start to realise the concept of death, killing and its finality, whereas Cell Game Gohan is at an age where a child's concept on the subject tends to be at an adult's level of maturity.
There's also that, compared to the battles with the Saiyans or on Planet Namek, the Cell Game had more safety nets for him at the time with his allies still there standing back. Also, as Gohan said, he wanted to use his rage when the Cell Juniors were attacking them, but actively trying to utilise something normally an instinctual reaction by forcing it can be a very difficult thing to do.
If anything, I'd probably have more things to question about the 180 he pulls as a SS2 in how savagely he slaughters the Cell Juniors.

Some nice lines, like Piccolo's in regards to the attainment of the SSJ having changed Vegeta's behavior, making him to regain his confidence, might also explain his heightened confidence there in contrast with his more pragmatic self at the Freeza arc. I dislike somehow though how the end of the conflict could be completely avoided if Vegeta put aside this side of him though,

I'd say the main reason for his differences in actions lies more on the personal connection. He'd been kept under Freeza's boot throughout most of his life and wanted to do anything to achieve his one chance to escape his grasp. That personal nature isn't nearly as strong for him with the Artificial Humans, hence why it makes sense for him to act more like his Saiyan Arc self.

and the ENTIRE conflict could have avoided if Goku followed Bulma's advise and killed Gero. This takes a little away from the whole conflict and turns Goku's friends into less of heroes that we should all cheer up. But overall, I didn't find it a bad arc.

As Goku said, he didn't want to just kill Gero before he did anything. Whilst that is a bad logic to go with, it's in-line with Goku's morals as he seems highly against killing a weak opponent when they're defenceless (letting Raditz's tail go, saving Freeza and showing disappointment in having to "kill" him, etc.). It could also be argued Goku would know someone like Piccolo would go ahead and kill Gero if they found out where he was, which is why he didn't risk even just warning Gero.

I do agree that changing this to Goku warning Gero and this allowing Gero to gain recent data to enhance his creations would make for a better plot than having to make several assumptions as to explain Present #17 and #18 being stronger just because of time travel. It was also disappointing that, regardless of going with that idea, not pointing out his error causing the entire arc to happen wasn't Goku's reason for staying dead and instead the "I attract bad guys" idea that has many holes to that line of thinking.

 

[Fantastische Hure]

maybe super-saiyan 2 also has that heightened aggression like super-saiyan did, before mastering the form

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd agree to that, but even then, it's far too much of a 180 for Gohan. Hell, Goku had more self-control of his emotions when gaining SSJ.
Then again, there is the guidebook statement suggesting SS3 is easier to control than SS2, which may be in reference to its aggression being so heightened.

 

[Papasmurf]

It probably amplifies aggression to a greater extent, seeing as not even SSJ Galu on Namek wanted to torture Freeza slowly. Galu's style of fighting seemed somewhat more aggressive than usual when he fought Majin Vegeta, as well.