Dragon Ball Reread

[Fantastische Hure]

also goku might have had better control of his emotions, since he was an adult. the new game also had a line abt goku keeping calm & fighting or something like that

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd agree fully with that, especially considering calming oneself was a major part of Popo's training.

 

[ahill1]

As you said, it's most likely to do with his increase in age and maturity. Whilst I used to point to him killing the Freeza soldier as contradicting this, there is an important difference in context as Gohan was still in the formative years in which children start to realise the concept of death, killing and its finality, whereas Cell Game Gohan is at an age where a child's concept on the subject tends to be at an adult's level of maturity.
There's also that, compared to the battles with the Saiyans or on Planet Namek, the Cell Game had more safety nets for him at the time with his allies still there standing back. Also, as Gohan said, he wanted to use his rage when the Cell Juniors were attacking them, but actively trying to utilise something normally an instinctual reaction by forcing it can be a very difficult thing to do.
If anything, I'd probably have more things to question about the 180 he pulls as a SS2 in how savagely he slaughters the Cell Juniors.

I agree pretty much.

As for SSJ2 Gohan, I think one could argue it taps in the Saiyajin's savage nature similarly to the Oozaru making Gohan to lose control, rationalized by Kuririn as him revealing his Saiyajin's side. It isn't as savage as Oozaru, but it bounces off a similar principle.

I'd say the main reason for his differences in actions lies more on the personal connection. He'd been kept under Freeza's boot throughout most of his life and wanted to do anything to achieve his one chance to escape his grasp. That personal nature isn't nearly as strong for him with the Artificial Humans, hence why it makes sense for him to act more like his Saiyan Arc self.

That makes sense, though Vegeta seemed also pragmatic when dealing with the Ginyus and Zarbon, even calling Goku out on his decision of letting Jheese out and him calling Ginyu in consequence.

As Goku said, he didn't want to just kill Gero before he did anything. Whilst that is a bad logic to go with, it's in-line with Goku's morals as he seems highly against killing a weak opponent when they're defenceless (letting Raditz's tail go, saving Freeza and showing disappointment in having to "kill" him, etc.). It could also be argued Goku would know someone like Piccolo would go ahead and kill Gero if they found out where he was, which is why he didn't risk even just warning Gero.

True, though Goku seemed to present that more as a secondary reason. The main reason seemed to be him wanting to test his strength against these foes.

Plus, like you said, there were other options that didn't involve killing, like warning or even taking Gero to the police and convincing them of his evil acts by making a connection between him and the red ribbon, which should be easy to do. Or even just destroy his laboratory. It seemed to boil down mainly to Goku prioritizing his battle hunger.




Speaking about the Boo arc, I found it silly having them all to jump on the Budôkai to fight again. While Videl was bribing Gohan, imagine have warriors like the kids, who are way beyond Freeza or even #18, fighting normal people whose BP doesn't even reach the double digits... they all had their reason, but talk about lame.

 

[Future Warrior]

It seemed to boil down mainly to Goku prioritizing his battle hunger.

Which Goku has already done beforehand. This isn't anything new.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

That makes sense, though Vegeta seemed also pragmatic when dealing with the Ginyus and Zarbon, even calling Goku out on his decision of letting Jheese out and him calling Ginyu in consequence.

Both of those examples featured opponents who were stepping stones towards Freeza, thus giving Vegeta the same desperation he'd have against the big boss himself.

True, though Goku seemed to present that more as a secondary reason. The main reason seemed to be him wanting to test his strength against these foes.
Plus, like you said, there were other options that didn't involve killing, like warning or even taking Gero to the police and convincing them of his evil acts by making a connection between him and the red ribbon, which should be easy to do. Or even just destroy his laboratory. It seemed to boil down mainly to Goku prioritizing his battle hunger.

I agree to that, though I wouldn't cite Goku's decision alone as a fault in the writing when he was just sharing his perspective rather than forcing it on everyone else. If anything, the decision mostly lies with Vegeta's battle hunger being to the point he threatened to kill anyone who interfered; and whilst Goku could've put Vegeta down, both coming to the same choice on the matter through reasons in-line with their characters certainly sealed the deal.

Speaking about the Boo arc, I found it silly having them all to jump on the Budôkai to fight again. While Videl was bribing Gohan, imagine have warriors like the kids, who are way beyond Freeza or even #18, fighting normal people whose BP doesn't even reach the double digits... they all had their reason, but talk about lame.

It was the only way in which most of the Dragon Team believed they'd see Goku again prior to their own deaths, not to mention Toriyama axed the premise when it became apparent dialling things back to the limits of a tournament wouldn't work at this point.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Future Warrior[/mention] Yeah, I am not contesting that.

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

True, though that goes back to my original point, they chose not to kill or stop Gero merely to satiate their battle needs, taking a lot away from the conflict and their roles as Earth's protector. Bulma even stated "they are as bad as their enemies".

Fair point on the tournament setting, though we still had Goten and Trunks defeating casual kids, when the thought of of someone above Freeza even having the silliest altercation against a casual kid in arcs before Boo's would come off as pretty silly.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

True, though that goes back to my original point, they chose not to kill or stop Gero merely to satiate their battle needs, taking a lot away from the conflict and their roles as Earth's protector. Bulma even stated "they are as bad as their enemies".

That's kind of the point though. Also, the Dragon Team never labelled themselves as Earth's defenders. They save Earth due to it being the planet they live on if an active threat shows itself, but they don't go out of their way finding villains that rear their heads anywhere like the Justice League. They're first and foremost martial artists wishing to test themselves, and the negative aspect of that is a pretty major point of the arc (Cell embodying this concept).
I think a major problem tends to stem from a lot of people misunderstanding what kind of story DB is. Whilst it does have superhero elements to it and many characters take grievance with great injustices occurring around them, it's mainly a Wuxia story with flawed heroes.

Fair point on the tournament setting, though we still had Goten and Trunks defeating casual kids, when the thought of of someone above Freeza even having the silliest altercation against a casual kid in arcs before Boo's would come off as pretty silly.

And, indeed, they received no challenge; so no problem there. I'd say the fault lies more in the Cell Arc seemingly nerfing or erasing most of the fantastical elements Part 1 had for everyday aspects of DB's world such as giant beasts and superhumans being commonplace. With that change, however, the creation of a Junior Division being added with the natural gap between adults and kids makes sense.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Well, I'm not exactly saying that they are heroes that will take the risk merely due to wishing to save the world, but this whole sequence shows that the conflict had a simple solution that wasn't solved mainly due to everyone's whim. Like we've seen from everyone but Vegeta later on, destroying the laboratory before the androids were activated was still seen as a way better action than wanting to face them the way Vegeta wanted, yet they are taking such "proud warriors" vision here by not wanting to influence Gero's decisions because they want to fight anyway. It's nonsense.

Goten and Trunks won, sure, but some things would just better go off without saying. Not that their win was faced with surprise by anyone, but I think they should be well past of even fighting against normal people. They are already at a different level altogether and while their main goal there was to fight between themselves, I just think that a tournament featuring normal Earthlings would just not be fitting for the warriors as they were at that moment, even if that was merely a nuisance they had to get past to reach what they want.

 

[Keedounan]

@Captain Cadaver

Well, I'm not exactly saying that they are heroes that will take the risk merely due to wishing to save the world, but this whole sequence shows that the conflict had a simple solution that wasn't solved mainly due to everyone's whim. Like we've seen from everyone but Vegeta later on, destroying the laboratory before the androids were activated was still seen as a way better action than wanting to face them the way Vegeta wanted, yet they are taking such "proud warriors" vision here by not wanting to influence Gero's decisions because they want to fight anyway. It's nonsense.

If anything, it would be nonsense (characterization-wise) to decide otherwise. Goku, Vegeta and Tenshinhan deciding not to do anything about Gero is very much consistent with their characters. Krillin had different reasons for it: he hoped that a greater threat would keep Piccolo and Vegeta in line, which is not a bad reason, considering this is exactly what happened in the first two arcs.

Was it a smart decision? Definitely not. But sometimes, a story is influenced by the characters' motivations, and it's not necessarily a bad thing.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Like we've seen from everyone but Vegeta later on, destroying the laboratory before the androids were activated was still seen as a way better action than wanting to face them the way Vegeta wanted, yet they are taking such "proud warriors" vision here by not wanting to influence Gero's decisions because they want to fight anyway. It's nonsense.

To add onto what Keedounan said, there's a major difference between their initial decision and Kuririn/Trunks destroying the lab later on. One was at a point when the only proof they had was the word of a mysterious stranger, one whom Yamucha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu were sceptical to believe in general, to say the least. Meanwhile, the destruction of the lab was after not only Trunks had been validated, but after it became apparent that the threat was indeed far beyond what they could've anticipated with far more Artificial Humans than they expected and one who had the potential to be the most broken threat they'd faced thus far.

Goten and Trunks won, sure, but some things would just better go off without saying. Not that their win was faced with surprise by anyone, but I think they should be well past of even fighting against normal people. They are already at a different level altogether and while their main goal there was to fight between themselves, I just think that a tournament featuring normal Earthlings would just not be fitting for the warriors as they were at that moment, even if that was merely a nuisance they had to get past to reach what they want.

They only wanted to compete in the first place because they fought they'd be able to fight the adults. Also, it's not as though any of the normal Earthlings were treat as any more than filler characters in the roster, save for Mr. Satan.
The Junior Division also ended up having some relevance, considering the jealous mother of the two kids Goten and Trunks beat was the way Babidi was able to learn where Trunks lived.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Keedounan[/mention]

I'm not saying it's exactly inconsistent with their characters though, I'm moreso weighing on the point that such decision takes a little of the weight that the proceeding conflict was supposed to have, as it had an easy solution, which goes on without their specific characterisation playing a role on all this. Besides, Piccolo and Tenshinhan easily saw the suggestion of destroying Gero's laboratory later on as way better than letting him awaken the Androids, while Vegeta was the only one who seemed to have a problem with such way of acting... and that honestly isn't much different from not impeding Gero from bulding the Androids, with the sole difference being Gero not have done anything yet, which you should agree, wouldn't weigh in Tenshinhan and Piccolo's decision.

Kuririn seemed the only one with a justifiable judgement for allowing this to happen, though I'd say that having to worry about Vegeta there, who was leagues behind Goku, in lieu of artificial beings said by Trunks to surpass the SSJs there is also far from a rational decision. I even take this suggestion from Kuririn as AT thinking the warrior's reasoning for not operating the way Bulma suggested as being kinda weak and him trying to add more reason for them not solving the arc easily as suggested.

 

[ahill1]

[mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]

Their skepticism towards Trunks didn't seem to play that big of a role though, as right after Yamcha questioning Trunks' advise validity, they saw how his words had merit by seeing Trunks' then supposed spaceship disappearing from their sight. Tenshinhan complemented that as a "I'll train hard as well" and didn't seem to represent his oppoaal to Bulma's plan with such suggestion of the story not even being true.

While it's true they had already seen how strong the androids could be, Tenshinhan is an ant in comparison to the Androids and Piccolo was also of little relevance to the SSJs, so when hearing about beings way above the current SSJs, pinning their hopes on their potential gains is pretty reckless.

When seeing how they couldn't compete in the adult's division, they should have just called off the tournament though. While they'd be fighting each other, they were always playing fight away from the crowds and the spotlight lol.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Their skepticism towards Trunks didn't seem to play that big of a role though, as right after Yamcha questioning Trunks' advise validity, they saw how his words had merit by seeing Trunks' then supposed spaceship disappearing from their sight. Tenshinhan complemented that as a "I'll train hard as well" and didn't seem to represent his oppoaal to Bulma's plan with such suggestion of the story not even being true.

We later saw 3 years later that Yamucha didn't believe in the story at all when he said that he told them the story was a hoax just before Yajirobe's car was destroyed. Also, FTL spaceships are commonplace in DB at this point, so them seeing Trunks disappear wouldn't prove anything when it could be rationalised as an extremely fast spaceship like the one Kami had.

While it's true they had already seen how strong the androids could be, Tenshinhan is an ant in comparison to the Androids and Piccolo was also of little relevance to the SSJs, so when hearing about beings way above the current SSJs, pinning their hopes on their potential gains is pretty reckless.

Even with disbelief in the story, Tenshinhan and the like could still view this as a motivator to try and bridge the gap that had formed between them and Goku. As we even saw from this, they managed to find their own ways to accomplish this such as Piccolo indeed getting such training gains and Tenshinhan developing the Shin Kikoho, both of which are relevant to SSJ tier.

 

[Keedounan]

@Keedounan

I'm not saying it's exactly inconsistent with their characters though, I'm moreso weighing on the point that such decision takes a little of the weight that the proceeding conflict was supposed to have, as it had an easy solution, which goes on without their specific characterisation playing a role on all this. Besides, Piccolo and Tenshinhan easily saw the suggestion of destroying Gero's laboratory later on as way better than letting him awaken the Androids, while Vegeta was the only one who seemed to have a problem with such way of acting... and that honestly isn't much different from not impeding Gero from bulding the Androids, with the sole difference being Gero not have done anything yet, which you should agree, wouldn't weigh in Tenshinhan and Piccolo's decision.

Kuririn seemed the only one with a justifiable judgement for allowing this to happen, though I'd say that having to worry about Vegeta there, who was leagues behind Goku, in lieu of artificial beings said by Trunks to surpass the SSJs there is also far from a rational decision. I even take this suggestion from Kuririn as AT thinking the warrior's reasoning for not operating the way Bulma suggested as being kinda weak and him trying to add more reason for them not solving the arc easily as suggested.

I'm guessing that's a matter of personal opinion, but I'm not sure why it would take away from the weight of the conflict. Sometimes, in order to keep the tension, writers tend to include character traits or motivations that would prevent them from making the most (seemingly) rational or pragmatic decisions. Such as the hero not killing the villains because it compromises their principles, or the villains not killing the hero because they need them for their plans.

That's often a good way to give the opposite side an opportunity to even the odds or even win despite starting out with a disadvantage. This is also part of what makes the characters somewhat relatable. After all, we don't always make the more practical decisions because it doesn't fit our personality or our goals, now, do we?

But I understand why you feel otherwise about this particular scenario.

 

[ahill1]

Fair enough points, [mention]Keedounan[/mention] and [mention]Captain Cadaver[/mention]. I can see it.

 

[Future Warrior]

Like we've seen from everyone but Vegeta later on, destroying the laboratory before the androids were activated was still seen as a way better action than wanting to face them the way Vegeta wanted, yet they are taking such "proud warriors" vision here by not wanting to influence Gero's decisions because they want to fight anyway. It's nonsense.

To add onto what Keedounan said, there's a major difference between their initial decision and Kuririn/Trunks destroying the lab later on. One was at a point when the only proof they had was the word of a mysterious stranger, one whom Yamucha, Tenshinhan and Chaozu were sceptical to believe in general, to say the least. Meanwhile, the destruction of the lab was after not only Trunks had been validated, but after it became apparent that the threat was indeed far beyond what they could've anticipated with far more Artificial Humans than they expected and one who had the potential to be the most broken threat they'd faced thus far.

To add on to this using a bit of real life psychology, people tend to not grasp the severity of a situation unless it hits them right in their faces, especially one that is supposed to occur years later. I think it's fair to say that the stakes were fairly abstract to the Dragon Team which is why their primary motivations came first and foremost.

The only characters that actively fought for justice was Future Trunks and perhaps Gohan in some instances in the story. In almost all cases, the ''heroes'' tend to fight to test their skills, revenge, self-defense, or protecting their friends. The actual people on the planet was always a secondary concern. Goku and his friends obviously know what's right or wrong and have a set of morals, such as Goku asking Cell not to kill innocent people and the gang constantly wishing back people that died from a major threat (not doing so would be pretty egregious). But again, they're not protectors of the earth in the way that superheroes are.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

As for SSJ2 Gohan, I think one could argue it taps in the Saiyajin's savage nature similarly to the Oozaru making Gohan to lose control, rationalized by Kuririn as him revealing his Saiyajin's side. It isn't as savage as Oozaru, but it bounces off a similar principle.

I'd agree to this for similar reasons as Hure and Kenshi mentioned. One thing that's interesting to note about you making that Oozaru connection is the anime seemed to have the same idea with how they added an Oozaru roar into the background when Gohan screamed before going SS2, which was a nice touch.

Shame the Kai version took that out though.

 

[SSJ2]

How strong is Count Dracula? He easily dodged one of Krillin’s attacks but never demonstrated his physical strength. Considering he was beaten by Puar, how strong actually was this guy?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Weaker than Yamcha by virtue of being weaker than Suke-san. I'd say he's at best on the level of Yamcha at the start of the series considering how easily someone stronger than him was beaten by a Yamcha who ought to not be that much above BoDB Galu. Kuririn mainly lost due to underestimating his abilities, which was the main point of the fight as to show how much he had to grow as a martial artist beyond just strength.

 

[ahill1]

Babidi thought the energy of warriors whom he believed to be fodder to Pui Pui would overflow Boo's ball, at which SSJ2 Gohan's energy only filled like half. He's all over the place. I'd maybe explain that away as his magic allowing him to know the strongest trio had energy enough to grant him the energy without detailing how that energy scales into power fighting.

It's weird how the mystical and non-human aspect of original DB seemed to be gone by the 25th Budokai. All of them are surprised by the Bukujutsu ability while that was common thing after the 22nd Budokai. While no fight before was as high caliber as Goten vs Trunks, it's clear some supernatural moves employed in those matches shouldn't warrant that much surprise with powerful non-human beings being already apart of the Budôkai beforehand imo.