Dragon Ball Reread

[SSJ2]

Will try to catch up to where you are today [mention]ahill1[/mention] . Where are you?

 

[ahill1]

I'm at young piccolo daimao vs goku. the fight is on his final moments.

 

[SSJ2]

Ok there’s no way I’ll be catching up today then lol

 

[SSJ2]

Which version of Roshi is Karin mentioning?

 

[Papasmurf]

Probably old Roshi.

 

[ahill1]

it's weird as Goku should be way above old roshi. also worth noting that when roshi compared himself with this Goku on the plane, knowing Goku trained with Karin, he also didn't use so definitive terms to express Goku's superiority. either toriyama retconned old Roshi's strength, or maybe Karin was with the young roshi that drank the tricky water in mind, with roshi apparently using doubtful terms because his disciples didn't know how he stacked up to Goku due to not knowing they fought evenly at the tournament.

 

[ahill1]

almost up to the 23rd Buodokai and I think we should have more of a break to assimilate Goku's new gained power. We barely get used to the amount Goku has gained and he's already breaking such limit by a milestone already. For instance, he defeated the most formidable opponent at that point in history yet, gaining a power up that accessed his deep reserves and yet we have him trashed by Popo only to rise to a whole new level afterwards... if we were given some time between these power ups, which I think the anime accomplished to with its fillers it'd have seem more impressive overall.

 

[ahill1]

Finished part 1. The 23rd budokai was ok, but I think that the whole thing with Goku holding back from killing Piccolo with the super KMHMH was poorly handled. Firstly we have him stopping the KMHMH when he was about to use since Roshi pointed out it could kill Kami, but then later Kuririn reminds him of the DBs and their functionality in reviving Kami, only for Goku to later go against this same argument by Kami-Sama since the DBs would lose functionality with his death. So yeah, it was kind of a mess.

Goku stated that Piccolo's chi when charging up the chobakurestumaha is the strongest he has ever felt and didn't state it before when fighting Piccolo. On a similar note ppl use to argue Baby from GT wasn't the strongest Saiyajin until evolving further this would also imply Piccolo wasn't the strongest he felt until then, which we know isn't true with our knowledge of the story lol.

From a point before the final budokai, old Piccolo tried to run as soon as Roshi tried to attempt the Mafuba. Wouldn't destroying the rice cooker with a chi blast be a very easy solution? lol.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Goku stated that Piccolo's chi when charging up the chobakurestumaha is the strongest he has ever felt and didn't state it before when fighting Piccolo. On a similar note ppl use to argue Baby from GT wasn't the strongest Saiyajin until evolving further this would also imply Piccolo wasn't the strongest he felt until then, which we know isn't true with our knowledge of the story lol.

The statement about strongest Ki would include Goku himself, who the previous versions of Piccolo didn't surpass.

From a point before the final budokai, old Piccolo tried to run as soon as Roshi tried to attempt the Mafuba. Wouldn't destroying the rice cooker with a chi blast be a very easy solution? lol.

It could be that there wasn't time before the technique was activated, plus I'd imagine staying in captivity for centuries would provide enough PTSD at the sight of Denshi jars to make him momentarily freeze.

 

[SSJ2]

It’s funny how quickly this statement became irrelevant.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Nah. It's still pretty relevant in the Piccolo Daimao Arc (ie. him killing a fleeing Tambourine). Galu only started to become more merciful towards enemies after his training with Popo, likely through his teachings causing him to put more value on all life.

 

[SSJ2]

So the mentality lasting only 1 more major arc means it did not become irrelevant quickly?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Depends on the context, really. You have Galu having this mindset for 160+ chapters with several events serving to either feed or change that perspective. It's not as if he completely stopped killing enemies, considering he gave no fucks about making Yakon explode. Pretty much all the situations where he spared a villain after that was after making sure they weren't a threat (breaking Nappa's back, having Reacoom and Butta KO'd close enough he could stop them when they woke up, only sparing Freeza after he'd been cut in half); the only exception being Vegeta who he admitted he wanted to keep alive for selfish reasons.

 

[SSJ2]

Yakon is not dead.

 

[SSJ2]

What would happen if post God Kami tried to reabsorb Piccolo Daimao? The Dragon Balls had already been made, and as a "guardian", Kami did jack shit to help the earth. He could have easily reabsorbed Piccolo and ended that threat. Would he still remain the god of earth if that happened?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Considering Piccolo couldn't just force Kami into it in the Cell Arc, I'd assume Namekian fusion requires consent from both parties. If somehow he did accomplish it though, he'd probably resign as God of Earth, or at least do so ASAP once he found a successor.

 

[Kyo]

Dragon Ball teaching kids about consent since the ‘80s. Steven Universe ain’t got nothin on this shit.

 

[SSJ2]

Yeah, like when Oolong openly said he was going to rape Bulma when she was sleeping.

 

[ahill1]

The Freeza arc was fine but it still has some flaws.

While I think there was a good build up to Goku being Freeza's worst enemy, the bond between them to the point Goku had to be the one to take out Freeza wasn't that big. Goku took part in 1 or 2 battles and then counted with a huge Zenkai to be sprung to that level.

The whole thing with Nail buying time so the earthlings would get their wish was also somewhat poorly handled. The Great Elder tried to delay his death and Nail tried to drag on their match so the earthlings would have their loved ones revived, but didn't they consider what would happen afterwards? Having that desire granted wouldn't stop Freeza's strength, wouldn't strengthen their chances to battle him, so it'd ultimately lead to nothing.

Freeza also relegating all the responsibilities of dealing with Vegeta to his underlings was also a bit fishy as when Vegeta was on his ship I'd imagine he could easily zap around him and get him. Vegeta devised a fine strategy but it's a little hard to believe for me that a ki blast bullet putting part of the spaceship on fire would prevent Freeza from getting to Vegeta, not to mention his willingness in getting involved when the matter could mean his reign over the universe being put a dent in.

Not to mention some convenient things like Freeza not giving Nail the mercy stroke when he saw how the latter was basically ruining his odds of having his wish granted, Kuririn and Gohan inexplicably dodging Dodoria's blast by quickly moving to above him and so on.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

While I think there was a good build up to Goku being Freeza's worst enemy, the bond between them to the point Goku had to be the one to take out Freeza wasn't that big. Goku took part in 1 or 2 battles and then counted with a huge Zenkai to be sprung to that level.

There definitely wasn't much as far as build up between them as characters goes, but the groundwork was definitely there for the narrative throughout the arc. Leaving aside Freeza's premonition (which is vague at best but worth bringing up), a major aspect that made this an essential role for Goku was how Vegeta treat the Super Saiyan legend. Him constantly saying that Goku was too soft to become the legend made it a role that Goku had to have as it was by his difference to the other Saiyans that he was able to surpass them.

Having that desire granted wouldn't stop Freeza's strength, wouldn't strengthen their chances to battle him, so it'd ultimately lead to nothing.

Potentially, there was a 3rd wish open if only choosing to revive those that Earth's DBs couldn't (Piccolo and Chaozu) whilst still having a wish free to do something like send Freeza far away (even into a star, perhaps) or revive the dead Namekians who could use fusion to overpower Freeza. Assumptions, yes, but the potential for them are there within the arc.

Freeza also relegating all the responsibilities of dealing with Vegeta to his underlings was also a bit fishy as when Vegeta was on his ship I'd imagine he could easily zap around him and get him. Vegeta devised a fine strategy but it's a little hard to believe for me that a ki blast bullet putting part of the spaceship on fire would prevent Freeza from getting to Vegeta, not to mention his willingness in getting involved when the matter could mean his reign over the universe being put a dent in.

I'd say it was the surprise factor of it more than anything. Moreover, it may be difficult for Freeza to move at his full speed in such a confined space.

Not to mention some convenient things like Freeza not giving Nail the mercy stroke when he saw how the latter was basically ruining his odds of having his wish granted,

Freeza is established to be someone who likes to toy sadistically with his enemies and by the time the stall was uncovered for what it was, it was a far smarter move from his perspective to immediately head to the Dragon Balls rather than waste another second with Nail. Could also be that Freeza wouldn't want to give Nail a quick death after that revelation.

Kuririn and Gohan inexplicably dodging Dodoria's blast by quickly moving to above him

I'd say this one makes sense, considering the impact of the explosion such as the torrent of water and rubble would act as enough of a distaction to get by. Another major part of this portion of the arc is how complacent with their skills Freeza's soldiers have become compared to Vegeta, with Dodoria's incompetence here only serving to highlight this.

There are indeed a lot of flaws to the arc such as Namekian fusion having no place to be introduced so late when one of the villages should've been able to sense what was happening and fuse in time, Ginyu having no idea his battle power was so low in Goku's body despite him being skilled enough in Ki control to suppress his own, the entire Freeza fight prior to Goku VS Freeza just being a constant back and forth of Freeza transforms and stomps -> new power up overpowers Freeza -> Freeza powers up and/or transforms, the Super Saiyan legend basically coming out of left field once Goku beat Reacoom and taking over the arc thereafter, etc. but I wouldn't cite the ones you listed as ones completely without explanation or rationale.