Dragon Ball Reread

[SSJ2]

Not disagreeing with your placement, but I find it very odd how many fighters there were at Roshi’s tier at the start of DB. How did his power degrade so much that the likes of Namu would have beaten him at BoDB?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

He did tell Galu that there was still many strong fighters in the world, so it's to be expected for fighters not interested in fame like Bora.
If Gohan can get significantly weaker (and vastly more than Roshi battle power-wise) from slacking off for near 7 years, then I can see Roshi's strength degrading so much through both age and seemingly not training anyone for a few decades.

 

[ahill1]

I must be more advanced than SSJ2 now. Kuririn has just used that funny strategy to take away the invisible man's ability.

I wonder if when Uranai Baba said her fighters get progressively stronger such was the case with the invisible man only thanks to his useful ability, making stronger more like useful in his case.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I wonder if when Uranai Baba said her fighters get progressively stronger such was the case with the invisible man only thanks to his useful ability, making stronger more like useful in his case.

If she did, I imagine she'd have said "dangerous" rather than "stronger", especially when by that logic Akkuman would be the 5th regardless of Gohan's appearance. Suke-san was likely stronger than Dracula Man, but both were far weaker than Yamcha. Kuririn only lost to Dracula Man due to letting his guard down with overconfidence and then suffering from great blood loss.

 

[ahill1]

interestingly enough, Mutenroshi stated at the beginning of Goku and Kuririn's training that at such rate they'd be able to enter the Budôkai. is that maybe implying that not even the competitors of the qualifying round would be defeatable material for initial Goku and Kuririn? or maybe he just meant that they would potentially do well in the tournament... idk

 

[Captain Cadaver]

I'd say it's most likely he was referring to them being able to get somewhere in the actual tournament past the preliminaries.

 

[ahill1]

I think that's more likely, too.

 

[Let's Go Fearless!]

Were Goku and JC equal on 21 TB? Both were exchanging their tricks with Goku having the lead but then both got exhausted later on until JC won the fight with his kicked at the end since he was taller than Goku. So who dp you think was stronger if they went all out from the beginning?

 

[Captain Cadaver]

Were Goku and JC equal on 21 TB? Both were exchanging their tricks with Goku having the lead but then both got exhausted later on until JC won the fight with his kicked at the end since he was taller than Goku. So who dp you think was stronger if they went all out from the beginning?

Goku definitely had the advantage in physical strength, as evident from the boulder pushing, but Roshi had a clear advantage in technique and experience.

 

[ahill1]

I'd say that the whole "Jackie Chun's arc" at the 22nd Budokai wasn't as well handled. While it's nice seeing him trying to persuade Tenshinhan to follow the right path, the reason to which he abandoned the match was shaky at best. "I've realized that my disciples aren't as foolish to slack off only due to losing"... what did make him have this opinion? They didn't show anything different from the last tournament that would give him this idea that they wouldn't be overconfident. Honestly, Ten's initial thought about Kame-Sennin withdrawing because he now knows their disciples couldn't win against Ten, while a less dignified reason, makes more sense with what was presented.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

The Kame Sennin disciples had shown their ability to stick to his expectations or go beyond them. Goku kept to his vow of not using the Kinto'Un, Yamcha managed to perfect the Kamehameha from putting in additional training and Kuririn made good use of his wits to gain victory. Goku, in particular, had shown himself time and again to surpass what Roshi could do such as learning the Kamehameha with little effort or completing Karin's training in 3 days. Roshi had a pretty good reason to leave things to the next generation, all things considered.

 

[ahill1]

The Kame Sennin disciples had shown their ability to stick to his expectations or go beyond them. Goku kept to his vow of not using the Kinto'Un, Yamcha managed to perfect the Kamehameha from putting in additional training and Kuririn made good use of his wits to gain victory. Goku, in particular, had shown himself time and again to surpass what Roshi could do such as learning the Kamehameha with little effort or completing Karin's training in 3 days. Roshi had a pretty good reason to leave things to the next generation, all things considered.

Why did he register into the tournament then? I see nothing within the tournament itself that would convince Roshi that his presence is no longer necessary. I'm not arguing his disciples didn't show signs of knowing not to be overconfident, but this thought being instilled into Roshi within the Tournament seems strange.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

All of those elements, bar Goku not using the Kinto'Un, were ones he only learned during the events of the Budokai; with his students having yet to prove themselves prior to it. Kuririn had been overconfident when fighting Dracula Man due to how he performed in the 21st TB and payed the price. Goku also let his guard down and made several mistakes in the 21st TB, his spinning tactic almost causing him to lose to Namu and him not being prepared to counter Giran's Guru Guru Gum until his tail grew back. Meanwhile, he showed in both the preliminaries against Chappa and how he handled Panputto as to how much he'd grown as a martial artist.
Moreover, its important to analyse what he followed up with and the context of him fighting Tenshinhan. His forfeit confusing Tenshinhan and getting him to come to Roshi for answers could be seen as integral to Ten straying from Tsuru Sennin's teachings. If Roshi simply continued the fight and lost to Tenshinhan, it's doubtful he'd make any psychological impact on him.

 

[ahill1]

But the main point stressed by Roshi to which he forfeited the match was Kuririn and Goku being mature enough not to relax by winning the tournament. All of these examples show more of an advancement in battle mechanics, not so much of how they'd react when faced with no potential challenge in terms of strength. It is weird that when Roshi was about to face Tenshinhan he made a reference to it being the new generation's turn and there being no place for him anymore in face of all these strong new fellas (which he didn't state but it's inferable)... which shouldn't be the bulk of the reason to which he is disguising himself there and fighting. It's weird.

 

[ahill1]

weird, seems like goku shrank down at piccolo daimao's saga in comparison to his 22nd budokai self.

 

[SSJ2]

Piccolo Daimao is also shown to be 50 feet tall. No consistency.

 

[Captain Cadaver]

But the main point stressed by Roshi to which he forfeited the match was Kuririn and Goku being mature enough not to relax by winning the tournament. All of these examples show more of an advancement in battle mechanics, not so much of how they'd react when faced with no potential challenge in terms of strength.

Advancement in skill is evidence enough when taking into account Roshi's training doesn't teach any particular fighting style and focuses more on the ethic of eating, training, resting and learning well. His students had to go out of their way to hone their skills and, in Roshi's mind, a student that managed to excel at putting his teachings into practice would be able to do the same for the other tenants of it. Moreover, Goku had gone nearly unchallenged after Karin's training until fighting Gohan, so him showing the ability to progress so far without any indication of having faced a challenge since then would say a lot to Roshi.

It is weird that when Roshi was about to face Tenshinhan he made a reference to it being the new generation's turn and there being no place for him anymore in face of all these strong new fellas (which he didn't state but it's inferable)... which shouldn't be the bulk of the reason to which he is disguising himself there and fighting. It's weird.

It definitely wasn't the bulk of his reasoning, but was still a factor.

Piccolo Daimao is also shown to be 50 feet tall. No consistency.

It can be theorised Daimao was using that giant form his reincarnation would show at the 23rd TB for the intimidation factor. Seems like a stretch, but it's possible.

 

[ahill1]

fair enough, CC. good points.

 

[SSJ2]

Were Goku and JC equal on 21 TB? Both were exchanging their tricks with Goku having the lead but then both got exhausted later on until JC won the fight with his kicked at the end since he was taller than Goku. So who dp you think was stronger if they went all out from the beginning?

I've been thinking about this more recently. I honestly could see Goku having as much as a 1.1x lead over Jackie. Goku left Roshi with no options. He was forced to resort to the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho to try to force Goku to surrender. Jackie was getting visibly angry by the fact that he could manage so little against Goku. The Budokai announcer also stated that Goku had the upper hand several times.

Roshi only beat Goku once both fighters were at maximum exhaustion, and had to use his knowledge of martial arts to do so. I think he was comfortably behind Goku, but his skill closed the gap.

 

[SSJ2]

Looking at my numbers though, I’d find it tough to fit in the likes of Blue and Metallic if Roshi was 90% of Goku. They shouldn’t be all that far from 21st Goku, but they should definitely be weaker than Roshi by a noticeable amount. Hmm