Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Namek

Kuririn: 250,000

Gohan: 300,000
~ Enraged: 900,000
~ Zenkai: 1,000,000
~ Enraged: 2,000,000
~ Masenko: 2,500,000

Piccolo (Weighted): 270,000
~ Fused with Nail: 1,350,000
~ Unweighted: 1,650,000

Vegeta: 500,000
~ Zenkai: 5,000,000
~ Planet Buster: 6,750,000

Goku: 8,000,000
~ FP: 10,000,000
~ Kaioken x10: 100,000,000
~ Kaioken x20: 200,000,000
~ SSJ: 500,000,000

Freeza: 530,000
~ 2bd form: 1,060,000
~ Powered up: 1,325,000
~ Full power: 1,590,000
~ 3rd form: 2,650,000
~ True form: 5,300,000
~ Vs Vegeta: 6,750,000
~ Vs Goku: 8,100,000
~ No hands: 10,800,000
~ 50%: 235,000,00
~ 70%: 329,000,000
~ 100%: 470,000,000

Future

SSJ Vegeta: 500,000,000

SSJ Gohan (2 arms): 600,000,000
~ 1 arm: 750,000,000

Android 17 (<50%): 700,000,000
~ 100%: 2,000,000,000

Android 18: 1,800,000,000

Mecha Freeza

Piccolo: 6,600,000
Vegeta: 6,750,000

Mecha Freeza: 530,000,000
King Cold: 300,000,000

Trunks: 16,500,000
~ SSJ: 825,000,000

Goku: 20,000,000
~ SSJ: 1,000,000,000

Androids

SSJ Goku: 1,800,000,000
~ Sick: 1,200,000,000

Android 19: 900,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 1,125,000,000

SSJ Vegeta: 1,875,000,000

Android 20: 1,000,000,000
~ Post absorptions: 1,250,000,000

Piccolo: 1,500,000,000

SSJ Trunks: 1,650,000,000

Android 18: 2,700,000,000
Android 17: 3,000,000,000

Imperfect Cell (Gingertown): 2,250,000,000
~ Kamehameha: 5,000,000,000

Kamiccolo (Weighted): 2,700,000,000
~ Unweighted: 3,000,000,000

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Power Level Guy @SSJ2 @ahill1 @SIAD

 

[SSJ2]

Pretty good.

Maybe Weighted Kamiccolo is a bit low. Couldn't spot anything else initially.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Made the gap between Goku and Vegeta on Namek really big to keep Future Vegeta weak, though that’s the lowest I’d go.

I like Weighted Kamiccolo at 90% of 17. He’s barely rivaling, but I get the impression he’s just behind the twins.

 

[SIAD]

I like.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Damn, you got something special going on here. Can’t wait until I get home and have time to dissect this.

Some of these gaps look goated, I’m going to adopt some of this and some concerns I had you handled nicely.

Goku 8/10/100/200/500 is goated. Looks damn good.

I’ll look later more, great job.

 

[ahill1]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Damn, you got something special going on here. Can’t wait until I get home and have time to dissect this.

Some of these gaps look goated, I’m going to adopt some of this and some concerns I had you handled nicely.

Goku 8/10/100/200/500 is goated. Looks damn good.

I’ll look later more, great job.

Heh, I gotta respect how passionate you are about power levels. GSM @ me but I don't feel much like analysing numbers and I thought I was a truly power level hardcore debater... You're truly the power level guy haha

 

[Power Level Guy]

@GreatSaiyaman123

Krillen 250
Piccolo W/ Weights 270
Gohan 300

This is going to be the area I focus on in the Freeza Saga next. It's probably best to do something like this. With Piccolo, we are pretty much locked in due to our stance on Kamiccolo. I would like to keep Piccolo W/ Weights > Gohan, but it doesn't seem possible. And Krillen really should realistically be up there too, he was able to pull of some massive feats here. It's very difficult for me to alter the status quo, but this may be the one time I do it.

Gohan going from 300 to 900 is clean. A 3x boost the first time, a 2x boost the next zenkai. Pretty cool.

~ Speed up: 6,750,000
~ Kicking the blast/warm up: 8,100,000

This is the area I find most interesting.

Did Freeza really do yet another power up to kick the blast? Freeza seems to struggle a bit and has to use full effort to kick the blast away, I suspect his speed up ability isn't far away from that. I think you just make his speed up a bit more and it'll be fine. He shouldn't be much stronger than Vegeta's blast since he needs to use full effort and there's a bit of a delay on the kick back.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Trunks: 14,000,000
~ SSJ: 700,000,000

Goku: 15,000,000
~ SSJ: 750,000,000

This is a hard sell for me. Where is Expected Goku? And how can Future Gohan rival Trunks and not rival Goku while Trunks rivals Goku? Seems to be a bit of a stretch for me. If Goku merely rivals Trunks, he shouldn't bring Trunks much hope. The very fact that Goku gives Trunks a little hope should indicate that these two are not rivals, at all. You were better off with your placement before.

 

[Kyo]

where the fuck is 100% freeza BOY

 

[SSJ2]

Goku didn’t exert any effort to spar with Trunks. Trunks wasn’t going all out but I think it paints a clear picture that Goku is decently ahead of Trunks. Might be outside rivalling range.

 

[Yoshi]

Trunks is probably 80%-90% of Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Trunks is probably 80%-90% of Goku.

How much hope can Goku give Trunks if Trunks is already capable of fighting him? I think Trunks clearly can't rival Goku.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@Power Level Guy @SSJ2 how can Goku find the androids scary if he can clown on Trunks?

Gohan going from 300 to 900 is clean. A 3x boost the first time, a 2x boost the next zenkai. Pretty cool.

Right? That’s exactly what I aimed for.

If we lock in with Weighted Piccolo = 270 then I think the lowest we can go is 200/225 for Kuririn and Gohan. What do you think?

Did Freeza really do yet another power up to kick the blast? Freeza seems to struggle a bit and has to use full effort to kick the blast away, I suspect his speed up ability isn't far away from that. I think you just make his speed up a bit more and it'll be fine. He shouldn't be much stronger than Vegeta's blast since he needs to use full effort and there's a bit of a delay on the kick back.

No idea. I think he might have used his speed up level to kick the blast and then leveled up to warm up with Goku. I just think 8 vs 8.1 looks nice for that part of the fight, and I like how all of his 4th form powers divide by 9.

where the fuck is 100% freeza BOY

~ 70%: 315,000,000
~ 100%: 450,000,000

You were saying?

 

[SSJ2]

how can Goku find the androids scary if he can clown on Trunks?

The Androids are way above Trunks. The versions that Trunks fought are comparable to SSJ Vegeta after the 3 year gap. Yardrat Goku should be scared to fight 2 people at that level.

 

[Power Level Guy]

If we lock in with Weighted Piccolo = 270 then I think the lowest we can go is 200/225 for Kuririn and Gohan. What do you think?

If we are actually respecting Piccolo, it probably should be more like this.

Piccolo 270
Gohan 200
Krillen 150

But of course the team-up issues come from there. I have to spend more time on this issue. Changing the status quo is dangerous imo. Hmm, but Piccolo W/ Weights isn't necessarily > Gohan in the Saiyan Saga. We know Enraged Gohan > Piccolo W/o Weights, but where does normal Gohan stand? I'd say he's always somewhere around Krillen.

And the idea of Krillen holding his own against Piccolo W/ Weights is pretty jarring. Once upon a time he did indeed seem to do that for a bit at the 23rd Budokai. But I have to think about this more. Also, the Mecha Freeza power-up is completely dependent on this power gap. And the Android Saga and Buu Saga powers completely dependent on that Mecha Freeza gap. I think I may have overrated the humans a bit much, although I love having them there. I'll have to spend some more time on this as well.

No idea. I think he might have used his speed up level to kick the blast and then leveled up to warm up with Goku. I just think 8 vs 8.1 looks nice for that part of the fight, and I like how all of his 4th form powers divide by 9.

You are going to have to invest a quality amount of time of looking into narrative, character motivations and so on here.

So last time I did a deep dive on this, this is what I came up with.

No Hands Freeza > Speed Up = Kicking Away Blast > Initial

So I think we agree on No Hands and Initial. So we have to determine if Speed Up is less than Kicking Away Blast or the same.

For me, it's the same power level, just one using minimal effort and the other using max effort. Hmm, when I put it like that, it sounds like they should be different.

Effort doesn't always change power levels. Freeza's disposition while fighting Warm-Up Goku is closer to what he looked like using his speed up. I don't think he could necessarily do better without powering up.

So I feel more like Kicking Away Blast is just Speed Up but with max effort, but no real change to power.

Also, this ties into Warm-Up Goku. The big question is what level does Freeza revert to when he fights Goku.

It looks like you think he reverts to his Speed Up power. But I'd disagree. I think he reverts to his initial power. The initial confrontation of Goku vs Freeza should be Freeza's initial power he had versus Vegeta, not his speed-up power imo. Vegeta must assume Freeza's speed-up power is his true power, and Vegeta instantly tells us that Freeza is holding back against Goku and tells Freeza that he better not hold back.

Damn, this is starting to get messy to explain.

Ok, so if Warm Up Freeza > Kicking Away Blast Freeza, you'd expect some sort of dialogue from the characters, as Freeza would be showing some new power. Yet, we never get that. So we know Warm Up Freeza = Kicking Away Blast Freeza. What we need is Speed up vs Kicking Away confirmation.

Look at Goku's reactions to the death beams. Sure, he is deflecting all of them. But note how he is using max effort to do so. The Death Beam is probably something like a 1.1x amp or so, so Goku shouldn't be tremendously superior to Initial Freeza (vs Goku). If Goku is only a Death Beam away, with a little more, there's very little room to make Goku above Speed Up Freeza himself, if Initial Freeza (vs Goku) is Initial Freeza (vs Vegeta).

Before I go further on I'd like to make sure you guys are on the same page here of what I'm saying. It's a messy subject, but yeah, this is the road I started to go down. It's a tricky one and 99% of the fandom cannot handle this topic so getting some feedback here would be great.

@Kyo @SSJ2

Let me know what you think about Speed Up Freeza vs Kicking Away Blast Freeza especially and I'm interested on your thoughts on the topic.

 

[Power Level Guy]

@OfficerPorch

Ah, forgot to include you on this too. Let me know what you think

 

[OfficerPorch]

@OfficerPorch

Ah, forgot to include you on this too. Let me know what you think

Nothing wrong with
No Hands Freeza > Speed Up = Kicking Away Blast > Initial.

If we were to compare this to Goku vs Cell and Cell(true speed) vs MSSJ Gohan, then
we know that the sped up version of Cell is outputting more than what Cell did against Goku, and Cell doesnt flare any aura either.

Speed up Freeza “should” at least be stronger than initial in ki in theory.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Nothing wrong with
No Hands Freeza > Speed Up = Kicking Away Blast > Initial.

Yeah, I think that's the right way. For a long time I had No Hands Freeza = Kicking Away Blast Freeza, but Kyo brought up some issues in a thread we did a year or so ago and I revised that thought.

It is all narrative driven. Vegeta's dialogue to Freeza when Goku arrives is telling. Vegeta knows Freeza is holding back against Goku, "Take him serious Freeza!" and the way Freeza's power insta jumps with no shock from the remaining cast should indicate he's accessing a previously used power coupled with the idea of "No Hands" power being something new.

Honestly Initial Form Freeza is one of the harder segments to breakdown in the entire series. These pesky guidebook power levels give us a false sense of confidence and we turn our brains off and never look into this stuff because "oh Goku is just 3 million and whatever they did before works". Like no dude, there's a lot of stuff going on here we need to unpack.

If we were to compare this to Goku vs Cell and Cell(true speed) vs MSSJ Gohan, then
we know that the sped up version of Cell is outputting more than what Cell did against Goku, and Cell doesnt flare any aura either.

Curious where you stand on the Cell thing. Does Cell have access to the power immediately when he speeds up? Does he use it later against Gohan?

 

[Kyo]

Let me know what you think about Speed Up Freeza vs Kicking Away Blast Freeza especially and I'm interested on your thoughts on the topic.

it's the same power but a different level of effort. for illustrative purposes, i would include different numbers in a list, while still making it clear that that's what's going on.