Freeza Saga ~ Android Saga

[OfficerPorch]

Curious where you stand on the Cell thing. Does Cell have access to the power immediately when he speeds up?

It’s possible that he briefly powers up in short bursts immediately before he throws the melee and regresses back to normal.

Goku uses this method when fighting Nappa and the Ginyus so it’s not uncommon.

 

[Kyo]

Does Cell have access to the power immediately when he speeds up? Does he use it later against Gohan?

i'm not the one you asked, but the cell thing relates a lot to the level of effort he's using. there are a few issues to reconcile:

- strength and speed correlate
- cell has not yet powered up to full

but the dialogue sounds very unambiguous about what he's doing.

it must mean that he was not going all out in either speed or strength at his current level, and when he goes all out in "just" speed, he just does it to catch gohan but is still pulling his punches when he pummels him. freeza never says that he goes "all out" in speed against vegeta and he doesn't pummel vegeta until after, but it's ultimately a similar situation.

 

[SSJ2]

It looks like you think he reverts to his Speed Up power. But I'd disagree. I think he reverts to his initial power. The initial confrontation of Goku vs Freeza should be Freeza's initial power he had versus Vegeta, not his speed-up power imo. Vegeta must assume Freeza's speed-up power is his true power, and Vegeta instantly tells us that Freeza is holding back against Goku and tells Freeza that he better not hold back.

But can this logic not apply if Freeza kicking back the blast is a different level of power? You can call it a different effort level if you want, but if Freeza went back to his true speed level without maximum effort, Vegeta telling Freeza to take it seriously still makes sense.

 

[Power Level Guy]

But can this logic not apply if Freeza kicking back the blast is a different level of power? You can call it a different effort level if you want, but if Freeza went back to his true speed level without maximum effort, Vegeta telling Freeza to take it seriously still makes sense.

Yes, that can work. But how significant of an upgrade will it be? Freeza needing to use maximum effort and the way the blast bounces off of Freeza's foot indicated the Blast in indeed near his power.

So we have Freeza doing two power-ups here against Vegeta, not just one?

 

[SSJ2]

An effort level increase is effectively a power up even if the power level didn't change.

 

[Power Level Guy]

An effort level increase is effectively a power up even if the power level didn't change.

Indeed it is. Ah, I see what I did for my list. I chose to rate Freeza's Warm Up power and equal it to Kicking Blast Away and left the Speed Up Ambigious with enough room for his Speed Up to equal the Blast.

That works well.

But for me I have Freeza revert all the way to his initial power when fighting Goku, not his speed up power.

There's too radical of an increase between Freeza Warm Up vs Goku and Initial, it can't merely be the difference between Speed Up and Kicking Blast Away, there's simply not enough room there to satisfy the feats against Goku.

Damn, I am always happy when I run into problems that former me had already made contingency plans for. Whew, that had me nervous for a second.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The Androids are way above Trunks. The versions that Trunks fought are comparable to SSJ Vegeta after the 3 year gap. Yardrat Goku should be scared to fight 2 people at that level.

All Goku is told is that they can beat up Trunks. How could he know he’d barely reach their level 3 years later?

And the idea of Krillen holding his own against Piccolo W/ Weights is pretty jarring.

Well, Saiyan/Namek Saga Kuririn = 1500. How much is Saiyan Saga Piccolo? 2000? 2250? Weighted Piccolo is 1600-1800 t

There’s no gaps status quo. Hell there’s barely even a status quo in this series. The gaps are changing all the time. This is certainly not something the author had in mind.

You are going to have to invest a quality amount of time of looking into narrative, character motivations and so on here.

I understand the power chain on Freeza’s power ups. Just wanted to make a broad gap between Goku and Vegeta for Future Gohan >> Future Vegeta and the numbers look pretty smooth.

I remember I had a set with FP Base Goku = 5 million that I’d shown you on Neo. If it’s too much then I’ll just use that and axe the Android Saga levels in half.

@SSJ2 @Kyo @OfficerPorch these are some Namek levels I showed to P a while ago. What you think?

Freeza (2nd form): 1,060
~ Powered up: 1,200
~ FP: 1,400

Piccolo (Pre fusion): 250 ~ 300
~ Post fusion: 1,250 ~ 1,500

Freeza (3rd form): 2,000

Vegeta: 3,000
~ Garlic Cannon: 4,000

Freeza (True form)
~ Initial/Underestimating Galu: 3,150
~ Speed up/Kicking blast/warm up: 4,200
~ No hands: 5,600
~ 50%: 112,500
~ 100%: 225,000

Goku (Warm up): 4,000
~ FP: 5,000
~ KKx10: 100,000
~ KKx20: 200,000
~ SSJ: 500,000

What you think? The one on the OP is more of a bloat list. Ofc having pre fusion weighted Piccolo at 250 pushes the shorties down a bit. I don’t mind them at 200k but less than that gets messy.

Curious where you stand on the Cell thing. Does Cell have access to the power immediately when he speeds up? Does he use it later against Gohan?

I have a bit of an issue with the lack of a clear power up, specially if the gap between Goku and Gohan is big (like 1.5x). Either Cell just wasn’t moving as fast as he could vs Goku (He starts trying harder on the speed department after Goku shows Shunkan Ido), or for some reason he used less effort on Gohan at first than he did on Goku.

 

[Kyo]

they're fine but i do like the other ones better

 

[Kyo]

the fuck do you mean "in 5 minutes"



post my shit right now

 

[Power Level Guy]

All Goku is told is that they can beat up Trunks. How could he know he’d barely reach their level 3 years later?

Because the way Trunks described them. Monsters with unbelievable power, I'm not sure if we can defeat them even with 3 years prep and so on.

Well, Saiyan/Namek Saga Kuririn = 1500. How much is Saiyan Saga Piccolo? 2000? 2250? Weighted Piccolo is 1600-1800 t

Yeah, I think I have Piccolo at 2,000. So his weighted power would be trash. Damn, I haven't ever considered Weighted Piccolo's power against Nappa. Damn, this is a good point. I probably have Weighted Piccolo around Tien's level. You are right, this is a good point to factor in. Weighted Piccolo doesn't have to be anything special.

There’s no gaps status quo. Hell there’s barely even a status quo in this series. The gaps are changing all the time. This is certainly not something the author had in mind.

I can't agree with this. There should be an assumed status quo from the previous saga unless otherwise stated. Remember, the numbers themselves represent a narrative.

So let's take Krillen and Piccolo for instance. In the Freeza Saga, let's say there's about a 10x difference in power. Now, in the Mecha Freeza Saga, there's only an 8x difference. This would be A) Krillen trained harder or B) Krillen has more potential he hasn't accessed yet

All power levels represent narratives.

These are important to account for. Same thing with the humans and Gohan from Freeza to Androids. Gohan didn't train so his dormant potential should be growing, but he's Gohan and he should gain more power than the humans.

That's why from Mecha Freeza to Androids, I have the humans making 10x increases, but Gohan making a 15x increase. Now the humans can increase more than the Adults Saiyans because they've largely reached their maximum potential on Namek, they have hit diminishing returns and so on. The humans don't hit their top end until Androids Saga and don't seem to improve much beyond that.

I understand the power chain on Freeza’s power ups. Just wanted to make a broad gap between Goku and Vegeta for Future Gohan >> Future Vegeta and the numbers look pretty smooth.

That's totally fine, but you can't make errors on the way there.

Kicking Away Blast >>= Speed Up at worst, if they aren't the same. This gap cannot be a huge power.

Initial Freeza must be the same for Vegeta and Goku.

Warm Up Freeza >= Warm Up Goku > Death Beams > Initial Freeza

Is too big of a gap for it to be the small gap that's suggested to have occurred from Kicking the Blast Back and Speed Up.

For me, I don't have a problem making Future Vegeta weaker in base than Mecha Freeza Vegeta and adding Super Saiyan on top. I think that's the route I'm going to take. Vegeta loses his drive to train, in a fit of rage of Kakarot leaving his with no one to challenge and losing his lifes purpose he erupts in a fit of rage and transforms.

What you think? The one on the OP is more of a bloat list. Ofc having pre fusion weighted Piccolo at 250 pushes the shorties down a bit. I don’t mind them at 200k but less than that gets messy.

I think your more conservative list seems more appealing here. I feel this new one is a bit bloated but I'm happy you weren't scared to try somthing with a big more gaps. It's good to test the waters every so often.

 

[SSJ2]

All Goku is told is that they can beat up Trunks. How could he know he’d barely reach their level 3 years later?

Trunks is in awe of Goku and calls him greater than the legends, then immediately tells him that the androids are monsters beyond his imagination. What is not clear about this? Obviously the androids are expected to be >>> Yardrat Goku level.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Trunks is in awe of Goku and calls him greater than the legends, then immediately tells him that the androids are monsters beyond his imagination. What is not clear about this? Obviously the androids are expected to be >>> Yardrat Goku level.

Yeah, GSM has a habit of making the Expected Androids only powerful enough to smash Trunks. Like, that was never suggested.

This is how strong they are expected to be.

With 3 years of training for Goku and the Z-Fighters, they may be able to win. That's it lol.

 

[SSJ2]

Trunks even says he will come back in 3 years to help out if he's still alive. And when he did come back, he was still being cautious to the point of telling Vegeta that they needed to wait for Goku's help to take on the Androids, and this was prior to him knowing that the present androids were stronger than the ones he faced.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Trunks even says he will come back in 3 years to help out if he's still alive. And when he did come back, he was still being cautious to the point of telling Vegeta that they needed to wait for Goku's help to take on the Androids, and this was prior to him knowing that the present androids were stronger than the ones he faced.

Yeah man. GSM is off base with this one. He'll counter with the idea that it's not about what Trunks thinks, it's about Goku and the Z-fighters perception of what Trunks says.

Either way, characters just seem to know the narrative. Like if one group knows something, the other group seems to know too.

No one is heading into the Androids Saga thinking that it's going to be a breeze.

Goku is neutral, he won't know until he knows. Piccolo has confidence but he also has a bad feeling.

Vegeta is so unconfident he's literally sneaking around in the shadows spying on the Androids. What, has Vegeta turned into a sniper now? Lol

The humans are crapping themselves.

This narrative GSM tries to portray that they think they are going to win handily is just not true. And he's not realizing that the gains he attributes must be factored into everything as well. If you make Goku doubly strong and he's still only neutral on one hand, you can't say that 1.5x Trunks is what they thought on the other hand.

 

[Power Level Guy]

GSM, there's a list I planned on tinkering with that might be too minimal for me but might work for you.

Vegeta gotta be somewhere 3.5 million though. 3 won't cut it imo, you need a bit more space.

Vegeta at 3.5
Freeza at 3.75

That might have some play.

You might end up with SSJ Goku around 300m or so.

Also you have Freeza at 90% of Goku, Freeza completely outperforms Goku when he fights Cell, the gap on Namek must be significantly closer than the gap at the Cell Games.

And we have two gaps of 88% where that fighter can't even touch the other. So you are limited here on what you can do.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

@SSJ2 @Power Level Guy “absolute monsters” is not a quantifiable term. Goku uses Trunks getting beat up by them as a measuring stick. He’s afraid of people who bully Super Saiyans on a daily basis. That’s the narrative.

So Trunks is hoping Goku can beat them 3 years from now. That has nothing to do with the gap between them in the Mecha Saga.

P you’re conflating this with that 19/20 debate. Of course Expected Androids >>>>> SSJs. The point is that Goku thinks Trunks being tooled is impressive.

Trunks even says he will come back in 3 years to help out if he's still alive. And when he did come back, he was still being cautious to the point of telling Vegeta that they needed to wait for Goku's help to take on the Androids, and this was prior to him knowing that the present androids were stronger than the ones he faced.

Forgot to mention Trunks was almost as strong as Goku and Vegeta was even stronger at that point. Meaning, he trusts Goku just because it’s Goku. 3 years before he’s have even more reason to trust him, since Goku had a lot of room to grow.

GSM, there's a list I planned on tinkering with that might be too minimal for me but might work for you.

Vegeta gotta be somewhere 3.5 million though. 3 won't cut it imo, you need a bit more space.

Vegeta at 3.5
Freeza at 3.75

That might have some play.

You might end up with SSJ Goku around 300m or so.

Also you have Freeza at 90% of Goku, Freeza completely outperforms Goku when he fights Cell, the gap on Namek must be significantly closer than the gap at the Cell Games.

And we have two gaps of 88% where that fighter can't even touch the other. So you are limited here on what you can do.

Why is Vegeta 3.5? You have Piccolo and 3rd form than my smaller list?

Freeza had a really hard time touching Goku though. He only lands blows by surprising Goku or because Goku let him. At best this is a 93% gap, because they’re not equals at all.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Freeza had a really hard time touching Goku though. He only lands blows by surprising Goku or because Goku let him. At best this is a 93% gap, because they’re not equals at all.

There is a skill disparity as well. Which is why Freeza is even closer than you think. Freeza has several speed feats that put him damn near on par with Goku.

 

[Power Level Guy]

Goku uses Trunks getting beat up by them as a measuring stick. He’s afraid of people who bully Super Saiyans on a daily basis. That’s the narrative.

Which Goku thinks may possibly be 2x his current power or worse.

 

[SIAD]

I probably have Weighted Piccolo around Tien's level. You are right, this is a good point to factor in. Weighted Piccolo doesn't have to be anything special.

I like.

 

[GreatSaiyaman123]

There is a skill disparity as well. Which is why Freeza is even closer than you think. Freeza has several speed feats that put him damn near on par with Goku.

There’s no speed feats involved in the fight whatsoever though. The fight is basically 3 segments:

1) The first clash, which is probably the only fight in series you attribute to skill;

2) The beam struggle, which has nothing to do with speed;

3) The ground fight, in which Freeza gets soundly trashed.

You talk about speed feats, but Cell made a point to show off his speed to one up Goku’s IT. Goku was taking Freeza’s hits because they weren’t shit. I don’t remember Cell instantly bouncing back from a combo or making Goku puke blood.

Which Goku thinks may possibly be 2x his current power or worse.

And what does this have to do with Yardrat Goku vs Trunks?